By Jo Nova
There goes that Big Back-Up Battery plan
It looks like consumers won’t save the Australian grid by spending thousands to buy the batteries the government can’t afford.
Unfortunately, the government has screwed it up again. They’re (we’re) subsiding solar panels and home batteries, and hoping customers will pay thousands to put a battery in their garage so that the grid managers can use it at dinner time to stop wild price spikes and blackouts.
Dean Spaccavento is the co-founder and CEO of Reposit Power –– which sells a controller that connects batteries to solar panels. He says almost no homeowners are signing up for the Virtual Power Plans (VPP) where they share their battery to help balance the grid. People don’t trust the agencies, and even if they did, most of the batteries on the market couldn’t be used in a VPP anyway. They’re not fit for purpose. The government, he said, assumed you could just plug in a battery, but it isn’t like that. “The government’s definition of what qualifies as “VPP ready” is meaningless.” he says, so all the manufacturers can say their battery is “VPP ready” when they’re not.
Only 4 or 5%!
‘A colossal wasted opportunity’: Reposit CEO slams federal cheaper home batteries scheme
Reneweconomy
“No more than 4% or 5% of those batteries will ever participate in a VPP [virtual power plant] based upon data we’ve seen,” he says in the latest episode of Renew Economy’s weekly SwitchedOn Australia podcast.
“That’s just a wasted opportunity. Probably 1.2 maybe 1.3 gigawatt hours of home batteries [have been] installed in the last three months, and 4% — 40 or 50 megawatt hours of that — will actually contribute to the transition of our grid from a coal-fired, gas-fired one to one based upon solar and battery.”
Firstly, he explains, people just don’t trust the VPP idea (Virtual Power Plant).
The first hurdle, he says, is trust.
“People don’t like the VPP thing because they say, I bought this battery. This is my battery, and I don’t want to share it with somebody who’s going to make a bunch of money out of it.”
Maybe if electricity retailers and the government hadn’t told everyone lies about how renewable-energy would be cheap, and how we were saving the world, customers might believe the agencies gave a toss about the people they are supposed to serve?
He is scathing of the poor planning involved:
“They [the government] don’t understand the nature of distributed energy assets and the way they get installed, how they work, the pieces that must work together,” he says. “And I think they assume things that are not true.”
“[They assume] you slap a battery down, you pull some wiring through and bing, bang, boom, hey, look at all those megawatts we could get under control. And it’s absolutely not like that.”
The key question:
“I think there’s an obligation where 17 or $18,000 of public money is being spent, that these devices actually do remain able to participate in a VPP.”
And on top of all that, even batteries that are VPP ready can lose that if something breaks, and no one is checking the batteries. He recommends a quarterly automated performance check. Just another little complexity and another cost to add to the pile.
So this first wave of home batteries are just the poor subsidizing the rich to install batteries. One day they might fix the standards, and the new batteries will be VPP compliant, but the issue of “trust” is only getting worse, not better.
Related Posts:
- Australia becomes a Top Five Battery Nation just as we find out how expensive batteries are — $478/MWh!
- Buy a battery, join a virtual power plant, and let AGL eat 80% of your battery for dinner
- Secret comms devices, radios, hidden in solar inverters from China. Would you like a Blackout with that?
- Labor wants the working class to help rich people buy batteries
A battery, that you paid a lot of money for, can be damaged in a VPP. Who would pay for it to be fixed?
Maybe the government can print some more money to fund it?
It’s only a problem when the money runs out. Sometime next Tuesday.
Of course, a massive VPP would also need to report it’s current charge capacity, (from every battery), and be immune from remote control at the home. Imagine a grid that relied on these batteries, forecasting that the gas generators will NOT be required tonight all of a sudden finding out that more and more of the batteries have gone flat before they were meant to. All because they were progressively damaged by deep discharging over the last month or two. Who is going to manage all that data and secure it against data corruption or loss to an unfriendly player/hacker? And how long before the VPP is useless? What is plan B?
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I wonder what makes a home battery ‘not suitable for a VPP’.
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Burning Up?
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The user disables the function.
5% compliance probably means that 95% understand the damage and have been taught how to turn it off. The other 5% are too stupid or maybe they consent to being virtuous. 5% seems about right….
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Using the greens vote as an indication of stupid, should be closer to 10%
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Maybe 50% of the green voters work for a living.
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The “BIG” battery network is not acting as a supply source. It’s the virtual load. When you get rid of alumina and aluminium smelters that supply variable BIG demand/load, you need to get a variable load that you control from somewhere or the grid has too much solar supply. Watch what happens to the frequency when real industrial demand ceases.
The grid is rapidly heading for a Demand problem.
Too little Demand caused by an imploding economy.
Fortunately, Victoria will go bankrupt before the grid fails.
Its all going to start happening just over two years from now and even God cannot save Victoria. The only thing a new state government can do is manage the disaster.
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That’s why the fake conservative Liberals in Victoriastan (and elsewhere) are doing everything possible to avoid being elected – the one thing they are actually good at and are succeeding in.
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One can’t blame them in one respect, who would want to inherit that basket case and get heckled while you tried to turn it around.
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Like how Queensland state Liberal party inherited the Labor basket case Coal royalties payment arrangements and are now dealing with the fallout of mines closing down due to making huge losses, and the ex QLD Labor Premier of Stephen Miles having the gall to call on the liberals demanding they do “something ” to fix the issue that his party created and set in legislation!!
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Not surprising, anything the govt participates in is usually a fustercluck.
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This issue brings to mind the inconsistent process that applies to Qld solar panel owners. You get a 4c/kWh credit for inputs to the grid and the retailer sells it just up the street for 25 to 30 c/kWh. In short , renewable energy is not a well managed industry.
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What a load of BS and you buy the toxic, risky battery and the govt then tells you when you can use it, if it hasn’t been drained by some other parasite.
Why not build genuine, cheap, BASELOAD power stns and have electricity 24/7/365 days a year until 2100?
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Far too sensible and no doubt based on logic for god’s sake. You will never be allowed near the levers of power, Neville. Go stand in the naughty corner with the climate deniers and privately funded scientists.
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I’ll offer the CC freaks the space for a battery rent free but the freaks must supply the battery free of charge 🤓🤓.
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A great experiment to test the efficacy of socialist cooperatives.
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Meanwhile King Island’s wind and solar is dismal again this morning and the Diesel is doing most of the work as usual.
https://www.hydro.com.au/clean-energy/hybrid-energy-solutions/success-stories/king-island
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That little experiment is always informative.
The good news is that the diesel is currently off and the battery is charging.
Oops the diesel is back on again and the battery has stopped charging.
Oops the diesel is off again and the battery has started charging again.
Clearly they need more solar panels, especially at night!
My curiosity is drawn to the simultaneous total output figure of 1067 kW and the total demand of 1768 kW. I suggest that combination of figures is impossible.
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After many times logging on to the the link for their renewable “success story” and seeing the Diesel hard at work while wind and solar took a nap, I logged onto the site to show a workmate a few weeks ago and it happened to be midday on a sunny / windy day and the diesel was off for the first time!
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Why would anyone want to sign up to a VPP when they have no control over when their power is being used (drained). And how does AGL pay you for the power that they are using (draining) from your battery?
Sounds like a racket to me. An AGL racket.
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Cannon-Brookes = Government mandated racket for the big end of town JR…..plain and simple.
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I’m not on a VPP but currently AGL in Qld pays me 13c per kWh for the first 10 kWh and 3c per kWh after that.
To put that in perspective, this week my system has been exporting around 30kWh per day.
On the other hand they charge about 35c per kWh if I’m silly enough to run my battery flat.
I don’t think it would be an economic proposition for me. And I can’t imagine being happy with AGL both draining my battery and selling the electricity back to me at 10 times the price.
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Judging by the numbers….. sucker!! You actually trust an energy outfit backed by Bowen.
Say it again Sam….. sucker!
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Not that your name calling bothers me, but …
you might care to explain why you think I trust AGL apart from the fact that they have honoured their side of the contract to date.
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It’s only a racket if you aren’t in on it.
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“Maybe if electricity retailers and the government hadn’t told everyone lies about how renewable-energy would be cheap, and how we were saving the world, customers might believe the agencies gave a toss about the people they are supposed to serve?”
Why does anyone still believe that governments or their agencies give a toss about the people they are meant to serve about anything?
The purpose of government agencies is to provide the illusion that a supposed problem, which may not actually exist, is being solved.
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Given that the grid is stuffed economically due to the huge competitive advantage of rooftops, the VPP was a big part of the way forward outlined in the current NEM review. Who would have thought that battery owners would be unwilling to let retailers control the discharge of their expensive battery!
I was offered $1/kWh for my battery discharge. The retailer would be pulling from it when the price hits the roof at around $14/kWh so not a bad return for the retailer able to control tens of thousands of household batteries..
There is supposed to be a rule change in 2030 to allow aggregators to participate in the wholesale market. So an ever more complex market for an ever more complex grid that is supplying an essential service.
Who thinks electricity prices are going to come down? If you can, make your own because when mental giants like Blackout and Sleezy are calling the shots on electricity supply it can only get worse.
If you are relying on the grid as an essential service, beware. It can no longer be regarded as an essential service. It is a craps shoot where the players think ever faster throws will eventually lead to making money. They are so buried in the stupid game that they have lost perspective and grasp of fundamentals. Rooftops are the only game in town in this economic suicide. Grid solar already a stranded asset. Grid wind not far behind in being stranded. At 8:30 AEDT (0730 Sun time), QLD, NSW, Vic all negative prices and grid WDGs curtailing. South Australia forecast to begin curtailing in the next 30 minutes.
Rooftops have a crushing advantage – they own their demand.
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“Given that the grid is stuffed economically due to the huge competitive advantage of rooftops,”
How long until all rooftop solar is able to be disconnected from the grid from 11 to 3, so all the grid scale solar and wind can get their teeth into us, either by software or hard switching, isn’t this a mandatory requirement now for new installs.
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A domestic inverter must not supply to the grid when the grid voltage goes too high. This could ALSO stop the inverter from supplying the house too.
It won’t be long before a sparkie develops a small auto transformer to take 5V off the grid side to allow the inverter to run continuously and guess what…. It’s not illegal to do it. YET.
I give it 6 months where the auto transformers are installed and then a slam shut law designed to enforce their removal so you have to pay the grid, even when the sun is shining brightly over your house.
It’ll be for your own good.
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An isolation transformer for 7kW is commercially available, and guess what, it already has a 230Vac to 240Vac step up/down function.
Just wire this with your inverter on the INPUT side and the grid on the OUTPUT side and your inverter will be able to supply to the grid even if the grid goes 10V above its normal cut off voltage.
Who would have thought that this could be done so cheaply. And of course, if you do this and get caught, then clearly I didn’t tell you about this product nor sow the seeds for your demise.
https://www.everybattery.com.au/product/itr000702001/
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That was already happening with my system in September, October and March. That is what justifies the battery.
Yesterday was reasonably sunny so battery was full by 1300. That is when I started exporting. Output may have been automatically curtailed with output peaking at 1430 to 1500 at 1.2kWh. I would expect a little more at that time but I did not check to see if the voltage was at the allowable limit.
As more household batteries go in, the duck curve will flatten and rooftops will rob more of the demand from wind. It has already killed grid solar.
Compared to grid scale wind and solar, rooftop solar/battery has massive competitive advantage:
1. They have captive demand and first access to that demand.
2. There is no need for procurement of additional land or additional transmission network.
3. They have massive political influence. No political party wants to upset rooftop solar owners. The battery rebate likely contributed to Sleezy’s last win.
Untethered, royalty free lignite is the only source of generation that can now compete with rooftop solar in Australia. Royalty free gas at cost plus margin rather than world parity price could also do better than rooftops.
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RickWill,
Your scratched record goes well with mine.
You’re applying the climatologists’ favourite fallacy: assuming a trend will continue indefinitely. The future isn’t that easy to get right, and electricity prices could easily come down. I understand that would be painful for you; you’ve spent a lot of money in the hope that you’ll get it all back in future savings. You like to call it an “investment”, but it really is a gamble.
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And what would give you any idea that the grid prices will come down?
Supply and demand dictates the pricing and at present, a windless night sets the threshold for who HAS to be paid enough to stay in business. No matter how much solar and wind gets loaded in, there will always be a need for 100% backup. All players have to operate at a profit else they leave the grid. So all that added solar and wind AND all the same reliable generators must be paid. Add more players, pay more money, keep adding players, keep paying more.
Unless one or more of the players wants to make a loss, ask the shareholders if they will allow this. And then ask the board members if they want to play that game, allowing losses forever just to be virtuous. It’s corporate/legal requirement to maximise returns, enforceable by the courts under the threat of Bubba time.
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True – but I have been right for over a decade now and the prices will not come down until the grid gets back to sensible scheduling so dispatchable generation is prioritised.
I keep hammering away because it appears some people are slow to work things out. Anyone who is awake should now see the obvious but Blackout and Sleezy are definitely asleep at the helm. So engrossed in the NetZerp fantasy that they cannot see the obvious.
10am AEDT (9am by the sun) and South Australia already getting 1060MW from rooftops. Grid solar 163MW with 63MW curtailed potential. Grid wind 424MW with 231MW curtailed potential. By 11am, the rooftops will be serving most if not all of the demand and the grid WDGs fully curtailed – increasingly stranded assets with reduced opportunity to sell electricity.
What the clowns have to realise is that there has been no reduction in dispatchable capacity. However its utilisation is way down so the humungous standby charges have to spread across much reduced volume. So unit prices have to go up dramatically.
Rooftops will win the WDG stakes because they have first access to the demand. They also have massive political power behind them. How many votes do you think Sleezy’s battery rebate secured.
I am yet to see any sign of the wholesale market getting back to sensible scheduling consistent with electricity being an essential service rather than a gaming venue.
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RickWill,
Nicely put. But we both know that it could be converted back from the gaming venue quickly and cheaply, and electricity prices would come down dramatically.
Our pretend market is less absurd than the Enron one, but I’m still hopeful that, one day, it’ll end up in the same place.
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Rick, to your first paragraph, yes.
But B&xS asleep at the wheel? Not so!
Thhey are disciiples of. Marx. Their primary objective is To abolish private management of industry.
“We will own nothing and we will be happy.”
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Yes.
Just as the poor and the renters subsidised the solar panels for homeowners.
Then the government have the hide to claim unreliables are cheap?
They do not live in the real world.
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And who’s checking the firmware of these battery systems to ensure they aren’t subject to a hacking attack or remote control disconnect or self-destruct by hostile parties? (See References.)
Same goes for inverters, panels etc..
Australia is already massively weakened by a substantially destroyed electricity generation system. It could easily be finished off with an attack on grid-connected batteries, inverters, panels et..
Of course, they didn’t think of that. And they don’t care anyway. The same people behind destroying our grid want to destroy Australia which is why they are destroying the grid in the first place.
References
https://joannenova.com.au/2023/07/the-spy-problem-with-not-so-smart-inverters/
https://joannenova.com.au/2024/08/the-solar-panel-cyberthreat-dutch-hacker-gets-into-4-million-panels-in-150-countries/
https://joannenova.com.au/2025/08/household-renewables-pose-cybersecurity-risk-if-you-want-to-make-a-hackers-life-easy/
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Ch*na seems to be the common denominator in all these various scenarios as to who benefits, and it seems to stretch all the way back to the Lima Declaration, which Whitlam was ever so keen to sign and that treacherous Fraser ratified, the main benefactor had to be Ch*na.
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Oddly enough it was the extremely destructive policies that the fake conservative Liberals Fraser and Howard signed us up for that are largely responsible for our present destruction. Those foundational polices of Lima and unreliables that they respectively committed us to have merely been built upon and expanded by Green Labor.
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Apparently, Ronin, Australia did not sign, and was not required to sign, the Lima Declaration. It was a multi-lateral Declaration not a Treaty.
It was probably the removal of the tariff barrier during the Hawke/Keating period that did the damage.
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David, I find it interesting that we don’t seem to have software engineers in OZ who are smart enough to parse line by line, the code used in inverters to look for ‘back doors’ or ‘kill ‘instructions, should political tensions get to a point where we need to ‘be taught a lesson or worse’.
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Most software engineers would not want to read MACHINE code to work out what it does. All those lovely high level languages are easy to read but once it’s compiled, it’s machine code all the way.
If I must, I can work out assembly code but you can keep the 1’s and zeros. There is a reason that we program in high level languages. There is also a reason that machines use machine code, (it stops reverse engineering unless you are really, really keen).
Also, different processors use different machine code, so learning one processor code will not necessarily help on another processor, especially if it is a different brand.
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Back in the day, I used to work for the Australian cardiac pacemaker company Telectronics, now defunct after Pacific Dunlop purchased it and had no clue how to run what was then one of Australia’s leading high tech companies.
Anyway, I remember attending an in-house talk about program “correctness”, i.e. proving a program such as the firmware inside a cardiac pacemaker would work as intended. This could be done using formal mathematical methods or Hoare Logic.
I was told at the time that this was impossible to do beyond about 30 program steps. It might be more than that now, I have no idea.
Incidentally, I got the following patents, way back when:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US4798206.pdf
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US5330520.pdf
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US5554176.pdf
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So those solar inverters would be in machine code?
I happen to know someone with 40 years of experience in machine code. (And it’s not David). I doubt that he’d feel like doing it for fun, but if anyone/group/institute did want to raise funds, I know who to ask. The way he explains it, there are almost no young programmers learning it, so hardly anyone still does it, but all our legacy banking software and the like are totally dependent on machine code still. Because so much money depends upon it and it runs constantly, it’s very difficult, and has high risk attached when anyone changes anything. All those international trades and transactions must be accurate, checkable, reliable, logged.
The process for sandbox testing every tiny line change prior to release, I believe, is intense.
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Also it’s possible that to hide something in software, re-entrant code can be used that self-modifies the code when it runs. Know a security expert in Australia that uses this type of code for security purposes. Says that it’s extremely difficult to debug, which would make it almost impossible to reverse engineer.
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Graeme,
There are two types of code that run.
One is compiled, as an example, it is written in C, the compiler then takes that high level code and converts it to machine code for use by a specific processor. The software engineer distributes ONLY the compiled code to the purchaser. Fast code is always compiled. It cannot be modified by the user once compiled.
Type two is interpreted code. It is converted to machine code at the time of running. This type of code is always available to edit and the code is kept in high level right up to execution of the individual lines. Feedback from the program can make changes to this code if permitted by the interpreter program that runs your code, it literally runs one line, then the next line, then next line, etc.
The second type is a lot slower than the first type and is generally not suited to anything that you would want to ship out as a finished product, eg a washing machine. Examples of the second type of coding include BASIC.
Noting that compiled code is done once, and any compiler errors can be tested before release, it is generally very sound. Code that is converted to machine code as it runs can incorporate bugs randomly. For example, the first time through a loop all works well but due to some noise, the second time through the loop it reads an error and then interprets that error and then things may not work, (or of course it could be months later).
Anyone doing security work would not want a user to have access to their code, ie it would be compiled and not available for perusal before running, (line by line). Imagine having a bank where a teller could jump into a BASIC interpreter program and change a few lines of code, as it is running your end of day balance.
So I’m not sure about security code that changes as it runs, most people would see that as a bug and most operating systems would not allow changes to code once the program has been accepted. If it did, imagine what a virus could do.
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I currently teach the basics of code to electricians, so I am aware of the difference. I started writing machine code in the mid 1970s, and was developing commercial products using machine code in the early 1980s. I also program in C and C++ for Museum projects, plus Python for other projects. And I have picked up an Associate Diploma in Computer Systems along the way.
Please believe me that this Security expert, who also advises Australian organisations in Canberra, uses this special code when developing SAMs, because I’ve used his services many times, including his specialised SAMs.
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When I bought a desktop size Data General Nova with 8 K (yes, K) of ferrite core memory in year 1970, I started to learn machine and assembler languages through courses taught by a rare few academics and a sales engineer.
We started with stock exercises like a program to create a perpetual calendar, as in what day of the week was 16 th June 1876. Leap years were a bummer.
There were occasional guys on these courses who often took 20 lines of code for a task when I took 40 lines. I fast decided that I was not blessed with the type of brain for programming,that I would hire experts as needed. Likewise, I left golf to betters.
Later, around 1975, I got involved with the Austirex contract for airborne geophysical survey of a large part of Persia (Iran). Our genius Albert used the 0 and 1 basics to manage a large volume of sensor and navigation data, sampled every second, using computers now rudimentary, but we did it.
Some older people today have had similar fun, but some lessons have stuck. For example, floating point software does not do division of numbers without errors that are often overlooked. Aircraft control high level software has built in capacity to be the root cause of crashes.
Geoff S
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Lithium batteries do burn at a furious pace and your family is at extreme risk if your home battery ignites.
So what happens if just a few percent of perhaps a million home batteries have a problem over the next ten years?
Jo Nova covered that in September 2024 and here’s the link.
But surely the decent chaps at the CCP wouldn’t stoop to such skullduggery? SARC
https://joannenova.com.au/2024/09/what-if-a-foreign-hacker-could-turn-home-batteries-into-pager-bombs-but-7500-times-bigger/
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The batteries should either be located a certain minimum distance from the house or buried underground with a tall venting chimney.
Imagine if a hostile state actor (or a basement hacker) decided to remotely ignite all the battery packs in an Australian city at the same time. It would be like a Dresden or Tokyo firestorm.
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But do not worry the deep seeded Australian mateship trait will kick in and other states will send fire crews to help put out the fires.
Remember the 1993/94 Sydney fires when over 800 fires across the state destroyed 225 homes and 800,000 hectares of land? Qld and Vic both deployed crews to assist making the firefighting effort one of the largest in Australian history involving over 20,000 firefighters both paid and volunteer.
My NSW based boss at the time lived in a fire ravaged area but was spared and commented how the crews from Qld and Vic could only contribute manpower because their hose interconnections weren’t compatible with the standard NSW hoses. Lesson learnt surely i.e. wouldn’t it be good if interstate fire trucks and tankers could be deployed so multiple hoses could attack a fire and not just have a conga line of fire hose holders standing round waiting for their turn.
Fast forward 32 years and AI tells me:
No, Australian fire hoses are not all the same in terms of fire brigade thread. Different states and fire services in Australia use different hose coupling standards, which are not universally compatible.
And to the more direct question of whether a Qld fire truck could hook up to a NSW fire hydrant to fight a fire AI tells me:
A Queensland fire truck cannot reliably connect to an NSW water hydrant to fight a fire due to significant differences in the design and fittings of hydrants between the two states. Hydrants in Queensland use Camlock fittings, while those in NSW use Storz fittings, which are not compatible with each other. This incompatibility means that a fire truck from one state cannot physically connect its hoses to a hydrant from the other state without specialized adapters, which are not standard equipment.
Looks like our well-established climate change stupids can claim 1st prize in the fire-fighting category of the struggle against global warming competition. Nice book-end to the battery storage prize.
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There are businesses that manufacture adaptors required for interconnections.
https://storzconnection.com.au/index.php/cam-lock
Should be a good business selling adaptors for every state/territory to be able to work in every other state/territory
Remember though that we rare still separate states/territories and subject to the whims of separate parliaments so don’t expect standardisation any time soon.
Following federation, the six colonies that united to form the Commonwealth of Australia as states kept the systems of government (and the bicameral legislatures) that they had developed as separate colonies, but they also agreed to have a federal government that was responsible for matters concerning the whole nation.
If we have not sorted out fire trucks which have been in operation for many decades, don’t expect this new ruinable boondoggle to standardise before disaster strikes us all
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Fortunately Storz to Camlock adapters are available. Why don’t all firetrucks carry them?
And how did different states adopt different incompatible fittings in the first place?
It’s as ridiculous as each state having its own gauge of railway.
https://storzconnection.com.au/index.php/cam-lock
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Another one for the ‘what value are State Governments’ list.
So we have net zero but the fire trucks can’t cross borders in their operations.
Must make sense to someone….
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That was the original building code standard according to a mate who work for years in ensuring code compliance for his boss.
The the pollies got into it so it’s OK to put the batteries in your house for politically correct reasons.
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“But surely the decent chaps at the CCP wouldn’t stoop to such skullduggery? SARC”
Our ‘friends’ , the CCCCCCP would stop at nothing to get a competitive edge on anybody at all, they are playing a different game to us.
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And the Chinese businesses would uniformly play by the CCP rules if they thought they would not be caught? Competitive edge?
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I hate to tell you: it’s a two way street.
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There are lithium batteries and there are lithium batteries.
LiFePO4 based batteries are like lumos of hardwood, they will burn but they won’t burst into flames on their own. Li Ion batteries are more like petrol in glass bottles.
I have the LiFePO4 based batteries, I would not even think about the other types, (eg Tesla power wall). No sane person would put them onto a wall shared by your own house and certainly not in your garage.
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House fire started by exploding lithium batteries. These sorts of stories are likely to become more common in the near future.
https://www.9news.com.au/national/melbourne-news-family-of-four-escape-eltham-fire-lithium-batteries/bf731cc1-bde1-41ff-9fcc-d16f6a96402b
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Not only lithium batteries it now seems. An uninsured house in Perth was recently destroyed by a solar panel fault.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60LEo0Rwpp8
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Fair play Ian, I was skimming through the thread on my lunch break. Good to know there are more reliable lithium batteries, even better to know which ones to avoid. I don’t expect that family in the link l posted were aware of such differences.
Having said that, I expect there will be more similar news stories about house fires coming soon. It will probably take some time before the media or authorities highlight the distinctions you have made between different types of lithium batteries.
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Thanks for that info about different types of Li batteries Ian….. how can a person tell which batteries they have at home ….is there a list ? Is there some sticker or marking?
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BYD cars use LiFePO4 and plenty have caught fire.
00
So, someone explain this to me. Because the Australian NEM appears to me to be just a big game. When I went on Sportsbet to have a little flutter on the footy, I asked my son to explain all the betting products. At that stage had no idea what “ unders/overs” meant or even the “line”. I get the same feeling with the grid and like Sportsbet I’m never going to make any money, it’s just a big glorified waste of money. I’m getting robbed, just like the rest of us carbon transition punters. Perhaps I could devise a system to beat the bastards. What if I bought a decent VPP battery, but no solar panels? Charged up the battery using good old coal generated electricity at 4am , then sold it into the grid at 6pm. Be my own little arbitrager, like the electricity retailers. Winner?
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I have thought of that same scenario, joining a ‘wholesale’ supplier, but I’m sure they have all that covered so you can’t profit.
80
I thought that might be the answer. My son had devised a system by using 2 betting apps. When he saw big differences between the 2 apps for some betting odds , he could make some money. But then one of the apps discovered it ( somehow) and kicked him off the app. Which means the betting apps were colluding? So, probably that would also happen within the NEM. Because you couldn’t have the “big boys” losing money, could you? The NEM was once a service, now it’s just servitude.
90
The Origin Loop offer was limited to 200kWh in a year at $1/kWh so it is not a big money spinner for those with a battery. Less than $1 per day.
Fully utilising say a 10kWh battery on daily arbitrage could probably earn close to $2 per day load shifting if you are not already managing your demand. I do not think any retailer is still offering the zero cost energy from 11am to 2pm. But that would be the best if available to charge at no cost then discharge after 2pm and through the evening peak. You could be making around $4 per day if daily usage was around the 10kWh mark.
The VPP offer would be the cream on top but would not justify the battery purchase. Price arbitrage would be the main benefit.
Other retailers may have better offers.
60
I was all set to do that also, but then i found that there were no supply plans available offering significant “Off Peak” reduced rates anymore.( NSW S coast)
So i would have to invest in a large solar system as well to make it work.
80
In QLD, Amber have a scheme whereby you pay wholesale prices for your power plus a $60 month membership fee, power prices are usually negative from about 8 am to 3 pm, time to be paid to charge your battery then sell it back at dinnertime when it’s $125 a Mwh.
There’s surely some obstacle in doing just that, I’m sure, you don’t even need solar panels.
60
Wotif I set up a new solar panel rack connected to a battery which at night time powered an array of spotlights on my roof that are pointed at the existing solar panels which feed in at 44c/kWh until July 2028?
Would provide good security feature to deter anyone trying to skulk around the now illuminated property.
90
….or, or, use the solar power via the batteries to pump water uphill to a dam, then rig up a small turbine back at the base to generate electricity to make hydrogen. Then burn the hydrogen in another generator to produce steam to drive a turbine to make more electricity. I’m sure all that is feasible and something the guberment should do with subsidies.
100
I have word that Twiggy Forest has looked at your business model and he wants in. It has all the attributes he needs- inefficient power ratios, spending on resources that exceeds the value of the relative energy output and long term unreliability.
40
It’s a wonder the grubbiment haven’t thought of it.
30
Here’s what can happen if you charge lithium batteries in your garage.
This is at Eltham Victoria two days ago.
Lucky that the Kids and everyone escaped unharmed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKBLififntQ
80
There is still an urgent recall ( Danger , do not use , fire hazard ) on some thousands of LG home solar batteries,
https://www.nsw.gov.au/departments-and-agencies/fair-trading/news/urgent-recall-for-lg-solar-batteries-at-risk-of-catching-fire
71
Lithium batteries are ubiquitous. I have 30 to 50 of them in my immediate vicinity on my desk at home. Torches, cameras, GPSs, computers, phones, charged spare cells. Then at least as many in the garage and a few Li-poly stored outside the garage.
Everyone in the developed world is living with these things and give them little thought.
Scooters seam to be a serious problem. Maybe they are using Li-poly cells. Maybe they get abused. Maybe the cell protection is faulty (I have seen two commercial batteries with incorrect BMS wiring) Maybe the charger is faulty but should not matter if the cell protection is correct. Maybe they are being charged in the vicinity of combustible material.
Our robot vacuum cleaner had an incorrectly wired BMS. Fortunately the cells that were not being monitored tended to gradually go low rather than high so they would eventually fail on low capacity rather than explode on overcharge if I had not investigated the loss of capacity. The vacuum cleaner moves about under fabric furniture and curtains so would be inclined to set the house on fire if the battery exploded.
Take a look around you and count the number of lithium batteries around your desk. I should have a cleanup. Our local Officeworks has a bin for batteries.
110
‘Trust on the line as VPP drains customer battery’, trust, LOL, you would be well advised grant them as much trust as a brown snake.
120
It’s tragic to think that the Civilised world had already solved the problem of cheap, reliable, on demand electrical power generation and now that’s all being systematically destroyed.
The first commercial power stations were built in New York and London in 1882 (Edison system, DC).
I wrote a three part series about the history of electronics including power generation of which Part 1 is at:
https://www.siliconchip.com.au/Issue/SC/2023/October/The+History+of+Electronics%2C+Pt1
151
even in Reefton NZ in 1888
70
Did anyone see that story on tv last night about new Police Rav4 hybrids, during testing it was found that during ‘brisk’ driving, similar to a hot pursuit or an emergency callout, the battery got so hot, the vehicle was likely to go into ‘limp mode’ until the pooter says it’s ok to proceed. Heavy regen braking and pedal to the floor acceleration over stressed the battery pack.
I know, a bit off topic, but battery related.
211
Ok, just a few points regarding grid systems, which may help explain why these micro grids are “virtual”.
When you export from a battery or solar it can only go into the local 415v grid. To be exported to the next level would require a lot of new kit. The distribution companies are working on that. And dont worry, you will all pay for it through the regulated tariffs.
In order to overcome this issue these Virtual network companies use arbitrage, swaps and of course low/marginal prices to overcome the physical limitations they have.
90
Virtual Power Plant? Now there’s an idea! Why not Virtual Wind Turbines (VWT’s) and Virtual Solar Farms (VSF’s). It would save us putting up with shedloads of ugly infrastrusture. It would make farmers free to farm again. (MFF2FA)
60
We have a Virtual Feral Guv’ment with no virtue so why not.
60
We’re virtually being plugged up the bum by the Guv’ment.
It won’t change, we have public servants servicing their own needs whilst posturing as people who represent the public. Democracy manifest à la 21st century.
10
‘“The government’s definition of what qualifies as “VPP ready” is meaningless.” he says, so all the manufacturers can say their battery is “VPP ready” when they’re not.’
If only we had an opposition which knew it’s job (and science), they would have bombarded the media with facts prior to this scam being regularly double downed on by the virtue signaller Labor party!
Seems exactly like Fibre To The Premises (FTTP) the same charlatan government ‘uniparty’ foisted on us. Admittedly my town is in the State of Decay – Victoria, but when prompted to put my address into the retailers site to see if my address is compliant with FTTP I was assured that both my residential and business addresses (3kms apart) are ready for FTTP connection.
Beauty, I’m ready to go too, for reliable, fast internet!
I’ll stay with Telstra for the moment for the business, but change to Aussie BB for residential to compare services.
Contacted Telstra, told 1-4 WEEKS for NBN to come out and set up internal/external connections, possibly an additional 7-10 days for trench to be dug from FTTC point. Contacted AussieBB 2 weeks later who said 4-5 DAYS for NBN to do the same at my residential address. Had to contact Telstra after Aussie confirmed as nothing was forthcoming from Telstra, no surprise they hadn’t processed the order. Once sorted
2 different techs turned up on consecutive days at each property, efficiently installed internal/external junctions and both advised I would be contacted when trench work was requiring access.
Lo and behold both retailers contacted me a day later to say that NBN says there is an issue with the process and it’s indefinitely on hold. AussieBB was the forthcoming honest retailer who on investigation advised me that my property IS NOT compliant with FTTP because there isn’t any fibre installed from the node to the curb!
So here we are in a ‘technologically advanced’ country being told by a procession of elected politicians who have been assured by bureaucracy that our energy future is world class because YOUR battery will run a grid despite not checking if the technology is available, let alone even possible. Then compound that with the taxpayer being lied to as to the future efficiency of their businesses by the NBN entity who has bilked Australian taxpayers for billions for technology, to the point where many city dwellers have been deliberately blocked from Starlink to force us into NBN services which have never been physically completed, which turn out to be nothing more than vote buying lies to deliberately uninformed voters.
100
I took my Medicare Card down to my GP the other day to take advantage of Albozo’s “you just need your Medicare card” offer. The 10 minute consultation cost me $85. I needed a VISA to get out.
Trust? Pull the other one. It’s got a Li battery operated whistle on it.
50
Those 94 seats were gained mostly by lies.
20
Question:
1. What is the fire risk when the mass produced highly flammable batteries made by the lowest contractor are required to go full discharge to back up the Grid on a regular basis?
2. Has there been any actual “real-world” testing?
3. How will the commercial contract affect householder insurance liability?
4. How will the regular “overuse” effect the life of the battery? ⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰
70
Considering how closely new houses in new estates are crammed together with roof eves almost touching this is a huge concern.
A new estate near down the road from me has unbelievably small blocks and smaller gaps between the houses, fences, etc, the residence owners could barely stretch their arms on the back patio without touching the fence. Disgraceful for a large rural city with acres of vacant land in the estate and general area.
10
Shifting power supply responsibility to property owners while big businesses are struggling with grid supply and rising price of electricity.
It makes no sense
80
Here’s a suggestion, build new power stations on existing locations and connect to existing transmission lines.
sarc.
130
Does anyone have the lowdown on why Redflow batteries went under?
It looked like a viable , safe, and durable battery.
Was the out-sourcing of manufacture the issue, or was it just amateurish business development? Or something else?
50
It seems that vanadium flow batteries are still available. Was Zn-Br a bad choice?
50
A 3MW flow battery system was tried in King Island as part of the KIREX project. But the batteries failed after a short time and were quietly removed. Rud Istvan, who apparently knows something about battery technologies, is not very complementary about flow batteries. A comment in WUWT in April said that that they still suffer from high costs, low efficiency, low energy density and have lifetime issues.
40
I can buy 5kWHr of battery for $1700. Redflow was never this cheap.
And that’s why they went under. You have to be competitive. Being shiny and new just doesn’t cut it.
80
Its not a nice feeling when you discover that you’ve been conned. Especialy when its you own government . .
50
Who ‘reads the meter’ with a VPP contract and could you trust them to get it right all the time.
40
Here in America, we learned after Woodstock, that for a collective to function properly, everyone needs to drop acid.
That had limited success.
Now the requirement for collective success is therapy, anti-depressants, and gender a la carte.
Your government must provide mandated uni-sex sports and anti-depressants with each vaccine.
Then everyone will realize the brilliance of your Net Zero battery in every pot calliope.
The cool part is, if it (already) fails, the anti-depressants, smooth everything out.
And you can easily place the blame on America and Trump.
Actually, us Americans started Climate Change as part of our plan for World domination.
Ever notice how NYC and Miami are not underwater … but the Maldives are.
That’s us.
And don’t forget we also have secret alien technology.
20
New South Wales Labor Government has received a report on the electricity supply situation including the transition problems away from coal and gas and the importance of power station generators continuing operation.
They refuse to release the report.
40
“Australia becomes a Top Five Battery Nation just as we find out how expensive batteries are — $478/MWh!”
I want to buy a 1 MWh battery for my ev for $478. 🙂
Now I only have a 64 kWh battery in my ev, and it costs thousands of dollars.
10