Australians keep voting against climate taxes, but in 2016 we’re having an election based on climate. (We get the choice of “Bad” or “Worse”. For the economy, it’s the TNT-plan or the Nuclear-bomb?)
The Liberals are offering the obscene cut of 26 – 28% from 2005 by 2030. As a nation dependent on fossil fuels, with no nuclear or no new hydro on offer, the target is ridiculous. With the most rapidly growing population in the West, and one of the most energy intensive export industries globally, it’s economically suicidal. The Labor Party have a fantasy that it should be 45%. (Why not 85%?)
As far as the election goes in 2016, our only hope is to elect minor party and independent Senators to stop our two main parties from hobbling the nation. Start planning now.
According to the opposition spokesman Mark Butler on the 7:30 Report last night, the 45% fantasy will all be fine, because energy use and economic development will be “decoupled” (for the first time in human history) and new technology will save us. We’ll have profoundly different cars he says.
Look at what the last 15 years have done for cars…
Imagine how different cars will be in 2030?
Hey, but the last 15 years have been pretty profound for the Volkswagen. ;- ) Back then, who would have predicted cars would be smart enough to cheat on lab tests?
If Butler means “electric cars” – he ought know that if they are recharged by coal-power, they’re worse for the environment, and each new car on our grid could cost $2000 per year more for the grid infrastructure. Not to mention that Australian’s don’t want them, with total sales over the last five years averaging to four whole electric cars each week across the entire nation.
Here’s that interview below; note that at no time does Mark Butler answer any question by bringing in actual scientific or engineering, points. Apparently the Labor Party picked the 45% target because a committee suggested it. When pushed to justify it, it turned out to be not a target, but just a “starting point”, which doesn’t need justification.
How will Australia achieve this mindblowing goal? Not with nuclear power, not by damning every river valley, and not by converting all our coal to ultra-super-critical hot burners. No mention of those. Instead we’ll do it on “hope”.
But there’s always the possibility we just keep burning all the coal anyway but ship trillions of dollars to foreign bankers for carbon credits to make us feel good about. We can also ship our factories to China, and stop using air conditioners. But Butler didn’t mention that. Neither did Sabra Lane.
SABRA LANE: Based on the sorts of figures that were achieved under the carbon price when Labor was in Government, the carbon price came up to $23 a ton. Assuming that an Emissions Trading Scheme is part of your plan in achieving a 45 per cent cut in emissions, that would put the dollar cost at something like $200 a ton based on understandings by Warwick McKibben?
MARK BUTLER: That’s not right at all. Warwick McKibben did some modelling Tony Abbott’s Government. He modelled a range of targets frankly from doing pretty much nothing right up to 45 per cent cut, the sort of recommendation you saw on the Climate Change Authority’s report. Mr McKibben found by 2030 if you adopted a 45 per cent target there would only be a difference of about 0.3 per cent of GDP compared to the target Tony Abbott and now Malcolm Turnbull are taking to Paris. Really a very, very modest impact on the broader economy but what professor McKibben also found was that there would be a substantial positive impact on investment because obviously of the need to change to newer technology and invest much more in renewable energy.
SABRA LANE: The 45 per cent figure, as you say, comes from the Climate Change Authority report. It found even a cut of 30 per cent by 2025 would require a sharp reduction in emissions intensity of the Australian economy and would impose severe burdens on certain industries. What sorts of industries would close under your plan?
MARK BUTLER: Well, not necessarily any industries would close. A 45 per cent cut-
SABRA LANE: A 45 per cent cut is a huge cut and there would be some industries would be hugely impacted.
MARK BUTLER: Well 45 per cent is a starting point for our discussions but it is a substantial change to the way in which we do business over the course of 15 years but I think your viewers Sabra would see all around them incredible changes in technology happening, the way in which we produce electricity, the sorts of technology we use around the house and in many businesses and they’re starting to see the production of very, very different models of motor vehicles as well. I think most Australians understand that by 2030 the way in which we do so many things will be profoundly different to what we’ve become used to over recent decades and those substantial reductions in carbon pollution levels will be decoupled. The CSIRO only said in the last couple of weeks, will be decoupled increasingly from the path of economic growth.
Mark Butler is opposition spokesman for the Environment.
Car images Wikimedia: VT Holden: VF Holden
How much has that fuel economy improved? In the year 2000 — Holden Commodore VT was a V6 Automatic getting City / Highway: 12.0 / 7.2 (L/100km) The Holden Commodore 2015 specs claim fuel consumption combined is 9.7/100km. (Can someone find me the equivalent “profoundly” different figures now?)
Go to the 5.09 mark of the interview (at this link) where Butler says this:
What the!
Now that’s a Porkie!
Tony.
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Tony, what he goes on to say about China cleaning up it’s pollution by reducing coal power is also a lie.
China’s pollution is dictated by the fact they are a coal economy, have been for years – all the vast billion living outside the main cities still cook and heat themselves with coal in open fires. That’s what creates the massive pollution and the sooner they provide electricity from modern, clean coal power stations the sooner they will clean up the pollution.
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Was in Gundagai, NSW on the weekend….behind one of the food places is a brand spanking new ( but empty ) Tesla car charging point….6 points all up…..no cars though….
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It’s great to see Tesla has completed their initial commitment of building a supercharger network between Melbourne and Sydney ahead of schedule, it’s also great to see that myth has been dispelled that EVs will spend all day at recharging stations, good work OriginalSteve.
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And totally reliant on COAL fired electricity. 🙂
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that’s correct Andy ( well maybe a bit of SMS Hydro to top it off ) good old Aussie home grown coal, employing Aussie miners, keeping a roof over their families head, at least 100 years supply left in the ground yet we got people bashing EVs because they run off coal, gotta wonder about the mentality of some people.
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You ignored the future paradigm where perception is decoupled from former notions of reality.
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Labor policy is 50% electricity production from renewable sources by 2030 as stated by their leader Mr. Shorten, which presumably fits in with reduction of carbon dioxide emissions.
To achieve this one is looking at an extra 87,000 GWh/an. from renewables allowing for those which are currently operating. 87,000 GWh/an. is the equivalent to the production from ten 24 hr. 1000 MW stations. But if one goes with wind turbines you are looking at windfarms with a nameplate capacity of approx. 37,000 MW since they only operate about a quarter of the time. The assumption is that a quarter of the farms will be always operating, but if they are all idle and the coal stations have closed by then it’s back-outs as happened in Adelaide the other day.
Australia’s largest windfarm is Macarthur: 140 x 3MW turbines = 420 MW on 5,500 ha. and it produces power about 25-26% of the time. So Labor’s plan is for another 88 windfarms of this size to be built over the next 15 years, if wind is the chosen option; if it isn’t a solar is chosen what happens for the other 18 or so hours out of 24 when the sun doesn’t shine
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45%! How petty and trifling. In 2008 our courageous Labour Government committed in law to reduce emissions to 80% below 1990 levels. It was the realisation that they were not taking the p*** but really meant it that confirmed my sceptical perception that CAGW was an example of the “madness of crowds”. The current outcome is that emissions are rising, the national grid is on the point of collapse, industry is shrinking fast, the nations finances are struggling to stay (apparently) solvent.
It has taken his for the Conservative! leadership to wake up and head for the exit. Mind you, the ALP has jumped into the green pit just as the creature is surfacing into clear site.
“substantial reductions in carbon pollution levels will be decoupled from the path of economic growth”
Spot on – reductions in Canberra, growth in Beijing.
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Some warmists are also saying that the IPCC is self-censoring its messages about climate change, but in the opposite direction to the skeptics’ perspective. For the Club of Rome types, the problem is that there is not enough alarmist radical advice being created by the IPCC. That’s because for uber-warmists there is no easy path by which “substantial reductions in carbon pollution levels will be decoupled from the path of economic growth”. (Given the glacial pace of improvement in
renewablegullible energy generation, it’s hard to disagree on that point.)For them, the 45% reduction is not nearly enough and they aren’t joking. You see, within their belief structure, it’s all quite logical. Kevin Anderson summarises the IPCC climate mitigation scenarios this way:
I found it ironic that the warmist blogosphere says there is not enough recognition about the scale of change implied by CO2 emissions reductions plans, as we skeptics have been pointing out the scale of change involved for over a decade. It’s as though the warmists just weren’t listening. Almost as though they were so keen to disagree with skeptics about the severity of Fossil Divestment that they forgot to agree with the die-hard warmists in their own flock.
Anyhow, Mr Anderson is pretty clear that enormous changes in our economy would be needed. Sounds like the economic decoupling (or global cooling) can’t arrive soon enough. But he is less clear on scientist doubletalk:
He begins by saying scientists’ guidance is constrained within the goals of “civil society”, which basically means government, then in almost the same breath he says scientists’ guidance does not need to be politically expedient or liked by the government. How is guidance that is not liked by government and unfavourable to their politics going to be
“within the climate goals” of that government? After “Mechanical Engineer” and “Director of the Tyndall centre”, Mr Anderson can add “Professional Hair-splitter” to his CV.
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These people ASSUME
1. that more CO2 will cause warming
2. that more warming will cause Climate Change© i.e. worse weather
3. that more that 2℃ (figure plucked out of thin air) will be bad
4. that “renewables” can supply steady electricity and/or
5. that lithium batteries will make that supply steady (NOTE that Lithium – heap big ju-ju)
6. that electric cars will cut emissions ( electricity coming from roof panels? )
7. that getting rid of noisy industry and dirty mining will benefit the economy.
8. That their employment will continue regardless.
The last will be the big shock to them. Without industry and mining there would be massive unemployment and lower taxation revenues, and a huge jump in the Budget and Overseas trade deficits. The Government of the day will be FORCED to make savage cuts in expenditure. The first lot to go will be subsidies to green industries, and the end to claims that it will employ lots of people. (see lists of solar and wind companies crashing in Europe & the USA e.g. Abengoa). That will be followed by cuts to the number of teachers (back to 45 or more in classes), cuts to the Public services, cuts to the Health Administration and, not forgetting, stopping fees to consultants etc. The ABC and SBS will be classed as unaffordable luxuries.
The price of inner city dwellings will plummet, along with the number of coffee bars and restaurants. Unfortunately they won’t see it coming and will resort to sitting on the park benches saying “the government should do something”.
It is a pity that we have to try and save them along with the economy.
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This is a reminder using the power/energy of cartoons which is available 24hours.
How Green Energy Really Works
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No, no. As soon as the politicians have reflected upon the glory of their green project it becomes self-funding.
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Mark Butler what an inspiration, the only real question for Mark is how he feels about pitchforks and torches, and lots of them!
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Not to mention Madame Guillotine.
Remember what happen when the Aristocracy in France continued on an idiotic and arrogant course at the start of a solar minimum….
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He is a brilliant student.
He has watched BoM homogenize temperatures. Now he can homogenize motor vehicle fuel consumption.
Is there nothing that this man can not learn?
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He might find it difficult to homogenize distance traveled because electric cars just don’t cut it.
Oh, wait a moment – Agenda 21 has lots of blurb about ‘sustainable’ communities where everyone lives in very close proximity to everyone else and traveling any distance is frowned upon (some of the urban planners in Australia have bought into this concept in a big way).
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One world government of four regions, and no sovereign borders/nations.
And of course no need for borders when travelling is forbidden without an official travel permit issued only for limited purposes.
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I think we need to hobble both the major parties (Liberal & Labor) by narrowing their options in the Senate even further (than they are now).
Can’t get any worse than it is now trying to get legislation through a hostile Senate.
What the heck do these idiots think we’re going to do for 240V power from coal in our houses and businesses WITHOUT nuclear or hydro.
They are living in DREAMLAND, ie completely out of touch with reality!!
I weep for my country and my children (yet again).
Cheers,
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I think we need to hobble both the major parties (Liberal & Labor) by narrowing their options in the Senate even further (than they are now).
Don’t worry about moderating my earlier comment – just self moderated it now as below.
Can’t get any worse than it is now trying to get legislation through a hostile Senate.
What the heck do these id..ts think we’re going to do for 240V power from coal in our houses and businesses WITHOUT nuclear or hydro.
They are living in DREAMLAND, ie completely out of touch with reality!!
I weep for my country and my children (yet again).
Cheers,
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See thats the real point.
Shorten’s announcement further confirms my assertion that Turnbull now knows he can say and do whatever he wants in Paris.
He can lead the world in climate action and there is no alternative for the Australian voter. Its crazy nutbag eco-socialism or Labour…. some choice.
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On the television news last night he was meeting the Queen in Malta and commented to her about “green finance”.
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As you do
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Poor Queen.
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Which one?
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We have to stop voting these”Looneys”in and the only way to do that,is vote ALA in the Senate and Nats.and or Independent in the Lower house.The”Turdbull and Bishop”show,are counting on us”Conservatives”voting for them,because the alternative,is”Short-one”or the “Greens”Too me,there isn’t much difference.
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Nah ….. The real point is that TurnBull used to work for Goldman Sachs who will make squillions out of the Carbon trading.
People constantly fail to follow the money. Our PM’s were privatized ages ago.
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The Coalition need to stick to their “direct action” policy. The ALP are committing electoral suicide with their policy of a 45% reduction in emissions by 2030. The ALP “think tank” are delusional. They are hoping that voters will see this as a major electoral issue. Well recent polls say no. The ALP face a wipe-out in the 2016 Election. They are an absolutely pathetic party. They have abandoned their “blue collar” workers and run with “greenie type idealistic policies”. Well expect an electoral wipeout. This is the “real world” – it is all about jobs, jobs & more jobs, and all that “45% reduction in emissions by 2030” policy will achieve is the loss of real jobs, and do absolutely nothing to change the climate.
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Let me see if I have this straight :
-man made climate change is scientifically unprovable
– they want us to commit economic hari-kiri by 2030 based on a huge lie
They are insane , or, economic illiterates , or, part of a monstrous conspiracy to create a global communist state through UN driven punative wealth redistribution…….
Tell ’em they’re dreaming…….
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They are not dreaming. They know what they are doing and it has nothing to do with climate or the environment. They are just radical lefties/Communists. Must destroy society to have a dictatorship of the proletariat. Sad thing is we all know how that works (except our leaders).
But work or not, they will sacrifice the entire country for their power and tyrannical, elite control. The leftists/Communists have the media, the universities, and the government. Now it is time to destroy their country to make it over as a Communist dictatorship. If you don’t like the term Communist, then try social Marxist.
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The labor is about the non-existing issues:
1. worker,s rights with less than 20% Union member participation;
2. Gay rights that most of us accept;
3. Woman,s rights that in our egalitarian society have been a reality for a long time (just try to say something against now and wait for the reaction);
4. Aboriginal rights (one of the most privileged minorities in the world);
5. Racism (Australians are of the most racially and nationally accommodating societies in the world. I know that well as I am the 1st generation immigrant into this wonderful country myself. I lived in Steiermark in Austria for one year in 1981 where people still thought that Hitler was good because he build autobahns and was Austrian); and of course
6. The GW crap.
How dinosaurial, irrelevant, self-distracting. Now we have liberals doing the same. Time for ALA.
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Since the Howard Government (Coalition) signed the Kyoto Japan UN Agreement Australia due to direct action (as now called) has met every emissions reduction target and now in 2015 has achieved the 2020 target.
But this is not good enough?
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No King Geo,
The coalition needs to totally abandon all of its measures to “save” the planet. Absolutely nothing needs to be done and someone needs to stop the insanity now. This one-upmanship of how we need to tackle a complete non-problem is a joke. They have us discussing which method is better when we should be toatally rejecting their idiology. Don’t argue the pros and cons because there are no pros and it is a total con. By engaging in the debate we are just legitamising their fraud. There needs to be a register that records the name of every idiot who bought (with our money)into this scam so that they can be held to account when the ponzi scheme eventually collapses. They don’t really think they can control the climate, they think they can control us!
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Right about NOW the Nats need to grow a pair, pull out of the Coalition & put this Un-Mandated Megalomainiac to the people +/- pitchforks & tumbrels.
National sovereignty & cultural & econonomic future have cost too many lives & is more important than the quarterly balance sheet & activities report for Goldman Sachs.
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I thought it was quite an honest announcement (at least the version I heard). ABC said it (labour but could be ABC) would either be a drop in emissions or 100% offsets to the same level.
I think its commendable that they admit emissions will probably increase, but that they will send some money to dodgy ticket trading schemes in the EU to offset the guilt of running an economy.
Pretty good policy for Labour. Anytime they are not drooling on each other and throwing their feces is an improvement.
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There is no sensible comment to be made about this.
Totally nutso.
Shorten is the epitome of all that is wrong with politics.
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He is the epitome of a disposable leader…..
Ah for true grubbiness, let’s not forget the startling depths Gillard plumbed……even MPs from overseas we’re flabbergasted at what a black hole politics was at that time.
Is it just me, or does Socialism and despair go hand in hand…..cue the Obama legacy…..
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SOCIALISM: The Hatred of the Productive for being Productive by the Paris-ites.
Any successful parasite would tell them DON’T KILL THE HOST STUPID!
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Bon mot . La Conférence du Climat Parisitique n’est ce pas ?
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history teaches us that socialism (nazism and communism included) like any ideological virus can,t help killing the host. Drunk with the total power the virus appears to be invincible, but this is where the rot begins. Just like Ebola only to die in a bloody mess until the next onset of global human stupidity.
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Hello Dariusz. Very good comments. Typing, use the apostrophe instead of the comma to denote the missing letters in can’t. The apostrophe key is just left of the Enter Key. Kind regards, Len
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I will not stand for socialism masquerading as environmentalism
Tony Abbott
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That’s what James Delingpole’s book “Watermelons: The Green Movement’s Real Colours” is all about, ie
GREEN ON THE OUTSIDE BUT RED ON THE INSIDE.
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The Green Chancre is far, far worse than ‘socialism’, itself predicated on spending and centrally redistributing money generated from the productive.
No, the Green chancre is a cultural and societal lethal poison of eco-marxism, which is humanly unsustainable without massive impoverishment. It is regressionist and backward. It leads to nowhere that could be considered an improvement on the prosperity and health of today. It crystallises into zero productivity, crushing individual and institutional initiative, human spirit and inspriation.
Read the killing details of the Green bile and weep that anyone professing an iota of intelligence would claim this is view of life holds any promise whatsoever.
Kevin Andrews – The Greens’ Agenda, in Their Own Words at Quadrant on-line.
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It’s all in the details. And the detail that I want cleared up is how you will ration the little energy that is still produced. In the UK, wind power still produces as little as 2.5% of the grid power, despite nominally having a very large nameplate capacity. On a dark, windless night, you just don’t get any power out of renewables.
Remember, you won’t be allowed to build any more dams. Remember the Franklin Dam. They never let Tasmania build it. And if you can’t build safe, simple, efficient dams, don’t even try to suggest nuclear.
Presumably you would give hospitals power first. And politicians are next most important – wouldn’t want the great
greenwatermelon party leaders to be left in the dark, would you?But then what? There wouldn’t be enough power to run our industry. Could there even be any industry with such an extreme cut to their power?
And as for our homes? No aircon for you – you can just fry (in the summer), or freeze (in the winter). In the UK, thousands die every year because they can’t afford to heat their homes. Think of the number that would die in Australia – not even more money would solve that problem because there just wouldn’t be enough power.
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The Green Mantra
In a nutshell, cost would become the sole arbiter of ‘choice’. Might be an excellent time to take a medium to long punt on Candle manufacturers.
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Butler is another lawyer who like all the others in Parliament, on both sides of politics, is the usual lawyer/pisswit when it comes to having the faintest idea about science and engineering. That is why he like, lawyer Shorten, sprouts all this clueless nonsense. Of course Turnbull and Hunt are also typical science and engineering deficient lawyers. There are far too many of them in Federal and State Parliaments holding ministries and shadow ministries that they are not intellectually equipped to handle.
The fact that many lawyers earn their living as advocates for criminals should send a warning signal to voters. Their job is not about truth but advocacy. Fifty percent renewables to replace fossil by 2030? No worries let me tell you how.
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Lawyers should be barred from running for office because it is a conflict of interest. Never mind the fact that lawyers don’t have a clue when it comes to productivity. Their whole profession is all about skimming off $$$ from those who are actually productive.
“In a town so small that one lawyer would starve to death, two can make a decent living.” — Author unknown.
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I was told years ago that for a good salesman most lawyers are extremely easy to convince to buy.
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The law is no bigger ass than when it listens to and unthinkingly embraces “expert” opinion. Obviously most of the court actors,from judges to lawyers, cannot think for themselves.
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That’s so unkind to lawyers. There’s a class even lower than lawyers and that’s pollies.
It’s a downward spiral once you abandon all ethics and commonsense.
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But there are lawyers who are politicians.
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Fuel Consumption rates for Joanne’s comparison.
2000 Commodore
City 12 litres/100Km is 23.5MPG Imperial, and 19.6MPG U.S.
Highway 7.2 L/100Km is 39.2MPG Imperial, and 32.6MPG U.S.
2015 Commodore
Combined 9.7litres/100Km is 29.1MPG Imperial and 24.2MPG U.S.
Umm, I would be surprised if these figures were actually obtainable.
I’m also dubious that VW were the only car maker at fault with data rigging.
Tony.
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I think the euro emissions standards are 100% un achievable, which is why car makers cheat.
Diesel is dirty, full stop……good for long haul trucks, outback gen sets and Singapore taxis, but that’s it. Watch the number of city asthma cases soar now……
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???
I have asthma and have been driving diesel Pk-ups exclusively since 1982 with zero problem. I find gas engine exhaust a whole lot more obnoxious.
BTW my VW Pk-up in 1982 got over 50 mpg and 1993 my 1 ton pk-up still in use hauling horses gets 12 to 14 mpg.
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But VW got better gas mileage by letting the engine run hotter, increasing the NOx, in actual use vs the dynomometer. They traded a real pollutant for reduced CO2 emissions.
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crazy world
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The exhaust gas reticulation on the modern diesel engine which is a measure used to reduce emissions increases fuel consumption and can also cause an engine to run roughly.
There is an LPG needle valve injection system for diesel engines that increases power and torque by up to 20 per cent and reduces exhaust emissions. The power gain is the result of mixing up to 20 per cent LPG with diesel which causes better combustion so that there is more efficient burning or combustion. Tests have proven a gain from around 80 per cent combustion of diesel to over 90 per cent.
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One thing about the electric car issue which never seems to be mentioned is the loss of fuel tax. I assume Australia and other countries have a large part of the price of petrol being a fuel tax that goes to the Government, like we do in NZ.
You can guarantee that no Government is going to give up that revenue stream, so the only practical way round it is for electric car owner to have buy the equivalent of a “road user” ticket to cover the lose in revenue or they simply put up the price of electricity “across the board” which will go down well with the voters !
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In Australia taxes are approximately half of the price per litre of fuel
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In Australia fuel excise for passenger car fuel is 39.2 cents per litre therefore as the average Australian car consumes approximately 11 Litres per 100km a road tax of $4.40 per 100 km would cover an Electric vehicle, As each petrol passenger vehicle is consuming a yearly average of 1650 litres of foreign oil but the EV is powered by a local source of energy the EV driver is helping the Aussie economy.
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Thanks for the figures Willard. The 1650 litres surprises me(I thought it might be higher for Australia).
I have nothing against the idea of electric vehicles as long as those advocating them realise all the ramifications which at the moment for Australia, realistically means more coal fired power stations.
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1650 litres is based on a passenger car travelling the average of 15000 Kms per year, multiply that by 13 million cars and the amount of imports is an enormous yearly figure, coal is not a problem, the country has the odd coal mine or two, and due to the large energy used in transporting and refining oil the tailpipe emissions of a petrol car are multiplied, I would much rather employ hard working Ausssie miners and grid power operators rather than keep some overseas oil rig owning party boy rich.
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There is no way “grid power” could be increased and maintained using wind turbines and solar panels.
And for most Australians EVs are too short on range and take too long to charge. Even the best of them, Tesla for example with around 450 kilometres of theoretical maximum range between charging, costs about four times what a similar size fossil fuel engine powered car costs.
I am not opposed to EVs but I recognise their limitations, that they are not what the market wants which apart from dimensions and styling is practical and convenient personal transport. The NRMA held a long term road test of the Nissan Leaf EV and the female driver was complimentary of quiet operation, reasonable comfort but did not like the need for charging batteries and the time it took, and what she described as being nervous while driving about running out of battery charge. The 160 kilometre theoretical range was closer to 100 kilometres on average when using air conditioning, wipers, lights, radio.
So even if the EV cost the same as the equivalent petrol engine version it is not a practical car for most people, maybe alright for inner city transport and heading out for a cafe latte?
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The Nissn leaf is an interesting car Dennis, up till now the range has been around the “safe’ 120km, fine for the drivers who only cover the Australian average of 38 Kms a day, of course not practicle for the driver who does Sydney-Newcastle most days, the recent updated model built in Japan, the US and UK has a ‘safe’ range of 200km, a bit better but still needs more, late 2016 (2017 model) is aiming for over 300kms, still not enough but heading in the right direction, but it appears the updates won’t be sold here, understandably Oz car dealers don’t want to sell a car that rarely comes back for servicing.
Not sure about your fascination with wind turbines and solar panels, what’s wrong with coal?
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Willard I want Australia to get rid of wind turbines and solar systems and to construct more coal fired power stations to replace the existing ones with later technology coal burning.
I was making the point that without reliable and cheaper electricity supplies EVs added to the grid demand would be ridiculous.
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Dennis, work out how much money is sent overseas every year to purchase the oil based fuel to drive 13 million passenger vehicles then work out how many state of the art brand new coal fired power stations you could build with that money, remember this is oil for passenger vehicles only, not heavy duty 4x4s, Winebagos, heavy haulage or mobile mining equipment.
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I don’t mind buying fuel from an overseas supplier, so long as we can sell something else to (lots of) someone else(s) so they give us the money to pay for it.
It’s called trade, and it works pretty well for us while we are allowed to sell our coal (and iron, copper, zinc, aluminium, lead etc).
So far we’ve done all right, but just wait till the Green Party gets a bit of power.
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I recall reading another commenter here at Joanne’s site mentioning what it would take to replace all the passenger vehicles in Australia with battery electric vehicles. Powered by the new tech Lithium Ion batteries, it would take more than 250 years just to mine the Lithium at current rates of extraction, and 100 plus times that to convert all the World’s cars to battery operation.
I can understand scaling up the mining of the Lithium, but surely not on that scale.
That’s just for cars. The green acolytes now believe that homes utilising rooftop solar with battery backup can also join in.
Besides the actual scaling up of the mining, there’s no way known they can scale up the battery manufacture in the time frame envisaged.
Then you have the problem of disposal of those batteries when their lifetime usage expires.
We’re replacing one (perceived) can of worms with what is now looking like an obvious can of worms.
Both battery electric cars and battery rooftop solar power will only be a niche market, and will never be scaled up to what is obviously just a green dream. That niche market will dry up if there is a non Government subsidised level playing field.
Tony.
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Re- Lithium batteries, let me answer that for you Tony, to replace the entire world’s passenger car fleet and provide home/business battery storage- at least 50 Gigafactories, yep, that’s right, I said FIFTY more buildings of the same massive scale as the almost completed Gigafactory in Nevada, the second largest floor area of any factory ever built, that when in full production will produce more Lithium batteries than all current factories put together. So how is it possible to build at least 50 more? Can it be done? And your thinking ” 50 more! That’s ridicoulous! Well maybe so but maybe the government should be saying to Tesla or Bosch or LG or any other business that wants to sell these products in Australia ” you want to do business here? You want our raw materials? we want part of the action, because I can give you one prediction that is sure to be correct – in 12 months time there’s going to be at least 2 massive empty factories in the Southern states of Australia and 120 000 citizens out of work and the tax payer is going to pick up the tab.
33
I have alluded to this several times Ross. No, not the wider price of electricity. A number of potential revenue sources present. For example, E-cars could only be permitted to power up from designated metered points with a unique cost profile. The vehicle registration ‘on road’ costs may also become onerous….or….you simply pay substantive taxes for a displayed mileage allowance. All cars will be trackable by their installed GPS unit, enabling the kollectiv to know where you’re going, how long, etc. There will very few ways to recapture the outright freedom of a full petrol tank.
The tax and GST raised from gasoline must be raised through alternative user-pays sources and the glamour of e-cars will evaporate very,very quickly, particular once a shagged battery requires replacement, or someone wants to know where you went with your paramour
60
“The outright freedom of a full tank of petrol” one that costs between $1.10 and $1.60 per litre depending on what day of the week it is, which countries are bickering with each other or if Mr Oil rig of the Middle East needs to buy himself another proffesional football team and give all his players a pay rise, or maybe he needs to buy another maxi yacht to compete with Mr Ruski who’s blocking his harbour side view of the Formula One track, Manfred, your idea of freedom is a little bit too restrictive for me.
14
Obamas armoured motorcade – each ‘beast’ deemed suitable for the president, uses 63L/100Km, and he has 45 vehicles in Paris now (presumably of differing armour levels and fuel consumption rates… but still, 45 cars for 1 guy who can’t even control gun laws in his own country..?
10
unbelievable:
28 Nov: Herald Sun: Tory Shepherd: PM Malcolm Turnbull addresses leaders about climate change at CHOGM meeting in Malta
THIS might be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
New prime ministers Malcolm Turnbull and Canada’s Justin Trudeau met in Malta and made it clear there was somewhat of a bromance blooming. The Canadian PM said Mr Turnbull had helped steer him through a spate of global events…
“As everyone knows I was thrown in the deep end of international summits and Malcolm, you’ve been extremely helpful in giving me little nudges every now and then as I navigate the global scene,’’ Mr Trudeau said. “It’s nice to have a friendly face and that happened after we first met. I knew I could always turn to you in a crowded room and get a ‘mot juste’ (exactly the right word or expression), a little insight into what was going to happen next.”
Mr Turnbull joked the croissants in the room were not “up to Montreal standard” and said the two countries had “a lot to talk about” including counter terrorism, free trade and trade agreements…
“I have to say, Justin, we have so many agendas in common, Australia and Canada.” Mr Trudeau said the two countries would also show “strong leadership” on climate change…
Mr Turnbull has encouraged Commonwealth leaders to send a powerful signal to other nations that strong climate change action is needed.
Speaking before 53 world leaders at the CHOGM meeting yesterday, Mr Turnbull has promised $1 million towards a regional hub to connect poorer countries with funds for environmental projects. He also urged those around the table to sign up to the Commonwealth leaders’ climate change statement ahead of the Paris climate change summit today…
Mr Turnbull also announced that Australia would join the working group to explore the Commonwealth’s $1.38 billion Green Finance Facility Initiative, also aimed at developing nations.
He will make a major statement on climate change tomorrow at the global conference in Paris and overnight
A sombre French President Francoise Hollande, who had earlier gone to a memorial for victims of the Paris attacks, compared climate change to terrorism.
“Man is the worst enemy of man,” he said at CHOGM. “We can see it with terrorism but we can say the same when it comes to climate.”…
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/pm-malcolm-turnbull-addresses-leaders-about-climate-change-at-chogm-meeting-in-malta/news-story/8b88a11ae1f2ce3bcf574693fe1c8b5b
51
Considering Turnbull’s recent effort at a press conference in Australia, where he stammered, red-faced, trying to answer a question on ISIS, I’d say that such mentorship isn’t worth a cracker or a carbon credit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjnLXA2wRo
To think, a year ago, Stephen Harper was PM of Canada and Tony Abbott was our PM. Now we’ve got a wet behind the ears PM in Canada and, against our electoral wishes, a climate change speculator as our supposed leader.
What is happening to the free world?
As for French President Francoise Hollande worrying about climate change when he has just experienced the worst security incursion into France since WW2, there are no words. What will it take to wake the political class up to the real threat, not the imaginary bogie of CO2?
[Editorial discretion applied.] AZ
110
Not free
The essential, unsolvable problem with hubris is that it always damages the innocent
20
Follow the money.
Hard to make a quid out of ISIS, therefore no point in presenting it as the biggest threat. In fact I would imagine the greatest pain being caused by ISIS is that of distraction from the main game of fleecing the populace on the myth of AGW.
60
We now have 3 western stooges:
Trudeau
Turnbull
Obama
Can someone come up with a nice cartoon?
130
Perhaps in combination with the Marx Brothers…?
61
On a similar note, Chairman Mal is doing the work of three men.
Larry, Curly and Mo.
20
when talking about car fuel efficiency , lets not forget how national and local governments with the aim of cutting fuel pollution, have actually made the problem worse. How many times have you driven into a city only to end up in gridlocked traffic with your car engine on idle , whilst a empty bus in the bus only lane drives by you .
80
Aren’t bus lanes there to remind you you didn’t have to take the car?
41
No CJ , they are a reminder to me that the pathetic bus service from the village where i live travels the most round about route possible, stopping at every other village along the way to town , at inconvenient times , taking an hour and a half to get you just the twenty mile journey into the city and only exists because of the subsidies provided by my local council from money raised through council taxes .
90
Similar to my little berg. When they first brought in buses, they didn’t even go to locations I needed to travel to. But after they expanded their routes, the bus I rode took an hour to get to my destination because it made so many stops in parts of town that I ordinarily wouldn’t have traveled through.
I could walk the distance in an hour (using the most efficient route). It was always frustrating to me to have to ride the bus (whenever my car was in the shop), because I felt like it was a huge waste of time.
If I wanted an hour one-way commute, I would take a job in the state capitol.
70
One more thing – when I first moved to this town, I got around on bicycle for the first 2 years. Many, many people did the same.
Buses seem like overkill in many ways.
50
Too right Power Grab, who in the hell wants to take their live in their hands , by risking going to work on a bike in England, when we have best part of six months each year in winter conditions
30
/sarc?
Some of us don’t have that much snow most winters…
Although after I was able to buy a car, and when we did have ice and snow, I felt less stress when I left the car at home and walked.
One can feel pretty helpless when the car takes to sliding off the road or through a stop sign. Or, I could tell the story of driving to another town when it started snowing and I went to slipping, sliding, and doing donuts on the highway in front of a bus and a truck (lorry). Fortunately, even after spinning, I ended up on my side of the road, facing the direction I wanted to go. It scared the other drivers apparently, because they stuck their heads out the window while passing me, inquiring if I was alright. Fortunately, I was able to finish my trip and only the next spring discovered a very minor spot where my bumper was pushed against the fender.
But, yeah, if there had been a bus, I might have taken it. As it is, I would have had to wait several decades for that option.
30
Your bus goes direct to the city? No changing halfway? You lucky dog, Dave.
Me, I drive. I can be there, do whatever I want and be halfway home before the bus gets there (and that is the hourly PEAK service).
Bus lanes are for the benefit of bus drivers, taxi cabs and government cars which assume the right to use them. (Check it out next time you’re in the city). If politicians were forced to use the bus you’d find a rapid change in their attitudes).
60
28 No: BusinessStandardIndia: PTI: Commonwealth leaders agree to set up climate change hub
The session on climate change was attended by UN General Secretary Ban Ki-Moon and French President Francois Hollande who said despite the terrible terror attack in Paris, he wanted to attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting to discuss climate change considering seriousness of the issue.
Hoping that a universal agreement would be reached at Paris conference, he said a couple of countries may pose hurdles in achieving the goal as they feel some of the obligations can block their development.
The French President, however, did not name the countries he was reffering to. “Man is man’s worst enemy. We have seen this with terrorism and we have seen it also with climate change,” he said.
During talks on climate change, India had forcefully articulated its concerns of the developing countries in finalising a policy statement of the Commonwealth countries in dealing with climate change which is likely to have an impact in negotiations at COP21 in Paris beginning Monday.
Indian officials argued that the Commonwealth must not pre-judge outcome of the negotiations leading to Paris climate conference and that commitment of the rich nations towards small islands and poor countries must go beyond the current level…
“This is virtually the last political milestone before we meet in Paris. I am encouraged by such a strong commitment by Commonwealth leaders (in combating climate change),” Ban (Ki-moon) said.
Stressing on the need to arrive at a deal in Paris, he said, “We cannot delay and postpone it until tomorrow. We have to take action. All major countries — France, Germany, UK, Japan, Canada and Australia are showing commitment for climate financing. We are going to present politically credible trajectory for USD 100 billion.”
He, however, did not elaborate on it…
http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/commonwealth-leaders-agree-to-set-up-climate-change-hub-115112800321_1.html
41
reminder:
27 Nov: Reuters: David Ljunggren: Canada backs U.S.: climate deal should not be legally binding
Canada on Friday backed the U.S. approach to major climate change talks in Paris, saying any carbon reduction targets agreed at the negotiations should not be legally binding.
The announcement by Environment Minister Catherine McKenna could irritate host nation France, which wants any deal to be enforceable.
That would be politically impossible for the administration of U.S. President Barack Obama, however, since it is clear the Republican-dominated Congress would not ratify any treaty imposing legally binding cuts on the United States.
“Everyone wants to see the United States be part of this treaty,” McKenna told reporters on a conference call before flying to Paris.
“There are political realities in the United States … they cannot have legally binding targets. We don’t expect that the targets will be internationally legally binding,” she said…
While Trudeau will not provide a new greenhouse emissions target in Paris, he has committed to coming up with a goal with Canada’s 10 provinces within 90 days of returning from the talks.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/27/us-climatechange-canada-idUSKBN0TG1YF20151127#BTfkzSyTTSIvcTOP.97
lol.
71
So as predicted by some this talkfest is not going to come up with anything but a grandiose announcement at the end of a session of empty promises. Good !!!
30
tried to get these up on Unthreaded for TonyfromOz to comment on, but the comment is still in moderation:
27 Nov: BBC: Matt McGrath: Will coal be on the dole after COP21?
In the UK this week the Department for Energy and Climate Change (DECC) declared that it will fully remove the £1bn available for a pioneering Carbon Capture and Storage competition scheme for power stations…
***There is a feeling that the reluctance to invest in the CCS might spring from a fear that if industry spends hundreds of millions on proving it works, they may not recoup that investment.
The big markets are likely to be in China and India. And both countries will want this technology, essentially for free, as part of a global deal…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34904127
27 Nov: IBN Live India: PTI: India going to Paris meet with progressive & proactive stance: Prakash Javadekar
Javadekar participated in a live interactive ‘Talkathon’ on India’s stand at COP21. He, along with Power Minister Piyush Goel, answered netizens’ queries pertaining to India’s participation in the upcoming climate meet including the country’s aspirations, outcomes and partnerships…
He said climate change needs to be addressed in a similar manner as HIV/AIDS, noting it could be achieved by selling cheap technologies to developing countries for producing clean energy.
“To fight HIV/AIDS, world did arrive at an extraordinary solution to an extraordinary problem and they made available cheaper drugs. Is climate change not as serious as HIV/AIDS?
***And one solution is that the company who have done research should not go uncompensated and part of Green Climate Fund should be given to them,” he said…
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/india-going-to-paris-meet-with-progressive-proactive-stance-prakash-javadekar-1169577.html
Sorry for the delay Pat — I freed that comment up in unthreaded. – Jo
21
http://news.sky.com/video/1595932/insiders-guide-to-a-green-machine
If you’re able to view it, hydrogen powered cars only emit water vapour.
31
SO instead of taking precious oxygen and turning it to CO2 which the plants turn back into oxygen we take that same Oxygen and turn it into water that the plants DON’T turn back to oxygen, yup hydrogen fuel way to go…. NOT.
80
Not quite true bobl. First you generate electricity which has to be available when wanted – you won’t charge your car overnight from your roof top solar panels. That means reliable conventional generation and CO2 emissions. Allowing for losses in transmission that probably means a small increase in emissions to enable you to travel with that smug glow of self satisfaction.
I couldn’t view the video. I assume that the car uses a fuel cell, otherwise there will be nitrogen oxide emissions (e.g. diesel).
30
G3
Correct me if I’m still dancing with pixies but ~circa 2007 I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Termite gut bacteria had a potential to produce some Hydrogen gas from their cellulose digestion process.
I have seen nothing further on this, so I assume it might have been a Green Dream/ Internet Furphy. However if you could genetically enhance that capacity & set up a digestor to keep the little boogers happy, it might not be such such a energy negative [electrolysis?] ( from the human input side ) process.
The life & actions of bacteria never cease to amaze e.g. accreting Gold & facultative capacity.
10
They do you know bobl:
6 CO2 + 6 H2O -> C6H12O6 + 6 O2.
20
Um, no they don’t – CO2 is the limiting factor in plant growth, if we dont provide the CO2 the plants can’t produce the carbohydrate which means the water stays as water.
You can simply interpret that as the 6 x O2 as coming from the CO2 and the O6 in the carbohydrate coming from the water, and vice versa for the oxidation reaction.
Because the increased water doesn’t increase photosythesis by itself (because it’s not the limiting factor) you can conclude that turning atmospheric oxygen to water by combining it with hydrogen made from reformed natural gas is a one way process, that sucks oxygen out of the atmosphere as is CCS.
10
I swear, they’ll (the EPA et al.) will label emitted water a ‘pollutant’ and tax it. They’re philosophically wed to the double benefit theory – label it a pollutant and tax it – reduce one and garner the tax. Who except the most intellectually challenged or ideologically hijacked would have believed they would have had the temerity to label CO2 a ‘pollutant’?
The first US President that has the metaphorical or actual cojones to dump that ideological foible will stand eternally tall in history. If that single simple thing were done, the whole damn edifice would implode.
Go on. I dare you. For the sake of humanity, reason, science, your grandchildren. Go on. Do it.
31
Just looking at the scheduled 3 weeks.
Pre-sessional (23 -28 November)
Then the heads of government arrive.
First Week (30 November – 6 December)
Second Week (7 – 11 December)
This is a huge event organized by the UN with the backing of the French government. No one even questions that we are suffering from terminal Climate Change and the race is doomed unless Western democracies donate heavily to poorer countries and the UN.
So a giant science fiction convention attended by heads of state, all with an interest in a critical political event with trillion dollar outcomes. Who cares if it is fantasy? It is bigger than Constantine’s conference in Nicea in 323AD to define the rules of Christianity. Instead of the Nicean Creed, we might get the Paris Pronouncement. It is a religion after all and supported by the Pope. That’s why it doesn’t have to make sense. True believers only plus the odd carpetbagger.
160
Sorry 325 AD. The synod meetings were 323 and 324 but the Constantine ordered one was 325. The earlier ones were organized by Al Gore the elder.
70
I mean the Paris conference does not care about emissions and percentages. None are realistic anyway and the whole process is illogical. What they do care about is carbon trading and cash commitments. That is why the smaller countries meet the week before. They dominate the UN. Otherwise why would 138 world leaders turn up? There are only 196 countries anyway and the G20 have the cash. It must be about money, not world peace.
140
According to Bjorn Lomberg Paris energy
reduction policies will have little effect
on global temperatures.
http://www.lomborg.com/press-release-research-reveals-negligible-impact-of-paris-climate-promises
Much pain for little gain. And when you
consider the influx of immigrants Europe
is now facing, Germany alone will take 4
million over the next 5 years, Europe will
need to build infra-stucture to support
them, lots of steel and cement, not to
mention increased energy for their daily
needs.
100
“According to Bjorn Lomberg Paris energy
reduction policies will have little effect
on global temperatures.”
Little enough to be rounded to zero I would imagine.
90
The COP21 Paris Snail Fest is truly little more than a 21st Century manifestation of the prehistoric Rain Dance, which believe it or not, is held in high scientific regard by the Green zealots.
00
I am wondering if you could provide a simple explanation as to why CO2 levels will remain fairly constant as they are predominantly due to natural causes, irrespective of any carbon dioxide abatement action by The Paris attendees?
My understanding is that the solubility of carbon dioxide in water controls this and it is temperature dependent, with most being found in the oceans, not the atmosphere.
30
Sure. Henry’s Law. 98% of all gaseous CO2 is in the oceans. This business about “CO2 levels will remain fairly constant”. Is not true. CO2 levels will relate to average surface temperatures mainly. Warm the lemonade and CO2 leaves. Cool it and CO2 enters. So CO2 goes into solution at the poles and out of solution in the tropics.
Also as Professor Murry Selby found, there is a good correlation with the integral of temperature and CO2. The integral of pulses is the total energy or warming of the oceans. It all looks quite simple science and physical equilibrium but don’t try to tell that to warmist who believes that man is evil and that poisonous man made CO2 hangs around forever. The only solution is to hand over money. It always is. Carbon indulgences.
10
Very good, about the Nicean Creed and the Paris Pronouncement.
We’ve already had the Papal encyclical ( how many wheels has that got) inspired by such worthy Pontifical advisers as Naomi Klein, Schellnuber & Sachs ?
71
The Hod Carriers of Babel
TdeF, in life I (and am sure you) have met many sincere and dedicated people who have devoted their lives to selflessly pursuing the service of others. Clearly there is, in many, a need for a purpose that can be measured as virtuous. Looking at the pictures of the Melbourne climate Demonstration it struck me that this instinct can be corrupted, in absence of actual outcome, into the embrace of an impossible abstract ideal such as “saving the planet”. Seeing these people and reading their comments in the media shows that for them this service is not a sacrifice but rather a pleasurable indulgence
in righteous indignation.
Harmless until it mutates into the waging of “just war” and the belief in your own moral impunity.
This is sad but you identify a different class of player of the great game, the professional or artisan functionary for whom the cause is a career. Just as building the great cathedrals of the middle ages provided a lifetimes paid work for the masons and builders, so “climate change” has provided
secure livelihood for hundreds of thousands, many of whom are winging their way to Paris at this moment. They are there for no other purpose than to maintain the impossible construction
that is their life’s work. It will end only when dissent breaks out amongst them over the division of the spoils.
4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.
6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:4–9[10]
70
The Last Pope.
20
Not desirable really. Religions have existed as long as man. Mocking them is not productive or useful. It is important to see them for what they are and how each religion appeals to its believers. A pope, mufti, Grand Patriach, Budda is a symbol as are the icons, statues, paintings, churches. Religion will not vanish and for many this is a religion, as nutty as scientology. Scientists are sceptical but this is a science based religion for the science ignorant, a belief.
That is why the targets are pulled out of a hat. Who cares how many people were at the last supper? You have to love Monty Python with how many kangaroos were the last supper. They made good fun of it all, the sermon on the mount, the messiah, the Palestinian suicide squad, the People’s Popular Front. Blessed are the Cheese Makers.
Most of all, there was the Society for putting things on top of other things. It was brilliant parody. Unfortunately it is serious, but I personally despair at putting facts in front of people. However there are those who are just too busy to analyse the mad pronouncements of a Tim Flannery of an Al Gore. It will help them.
What will happen is that a real crisis will turn up or the world will cool. Only that will end this religion, maybe. There will always be those who believe in Global Warming even when they are freezing.
91
But the problem lies in their tendency to prosletyse – that’s what stirs up mockery, satire, hard resistance
10
Nothing wrong with prosletysing. Whether it is done with a book in hand at your front door or at the point of a sword or a suicide bomber is the difference. As with Scientology, it is always about the money. I cannot believe that the heads of every country are going officially to a conference on something which is not happening, Global Warming. Why is the question.
21
“…damning every river…”?
That’s being pretty harsh on your rivers, Jo. At least beavers only set about damming their rivers. Perhaps it is just a minor typo, which you can correct and delete this comment.
40
I thought it was a Freudian slip.
30
I thought it was auto-correct. 😉
00
Well, they did manage to change the color. 😉
Now if they can get it through their thick skulls that electricity to charge those electric cars will need generators running somewhere and those generators will be powered by those same fossil fuels they think the electric car will eliminate… …but they’re in good company, no less a celebrity than Jerry Brown, governor of California also thinks the electricity will come if they just build the consumer end, the end of the line that uses the stuff and leave out consideration of the supply end of that same pipeline.
100
Roy, I also think they need to get into their “thick skulls” that all the fossil fuel energy can’t be wasted on charging electric vehicles when it’s a valuable commodity in supplying the huge energy demands of an oil refinery.
41
A small refinery, 100,000 barrels / day, pulls between 3 to 5 MWH.
20
Can you link those figures Chris?
11
From the frying-pan into the fire,
As with Labor the cuts would be higher,
In the great ‘carbon’ fake,
Is daft and would make,
Australia’s economy dire.
130
“A 45 per cent cut is a huge cut and there would be some industries would be hugely impacted.”
That’s exactly what they want, with all the attending consequences!!
40
Many Australian industries have already packed up and moved to other countries, and others are planning a move. The carbon tax and renewable energy surcharge (the latter rarely talked about but added to electricity bills, plus GST) and rising electricity charges added to Labor’s (un) Fair Worlk Australia industrial relations legislation supporting Union power in workplaces and other red and green tape issues made manufacturing in Australia unviable.
And the cost of skilled labour is (rounded off) A$600/day in Australia as compared to A$400/day in the USA. In India the cost is about half of USA cost, meaning total cost of employment, not only wages. A WA based luxury motor yacht designer and builder was asking around A$1.5 million per vessel made here. They moved production to the USA and the imported vessel sold here for around A$900 thousand. A specialist Australian manufacturing business I knew about from personal experience moved to India, production consumes large amounts of electricity in electric furnaces. When the major shareholders considered moving offshore they discovered that in India all of the operating costs were much lower, same for land and buildings and electricity prices. Returns on investment increased substantially.
A 45 per cent further cut in emissions would result in economic prosperity declining at an alarming rate. By direct action Australia has met all of its Kyoto reduction targets and now in 2015 the 2020 target has already been achieved.
There is much more to the scam than meets the eye, the economic vandals and fiscal fools are deliberately intent of sabotage.
90
Dismissed outright.
Overnight, PM Talkbull has claimed Bill Shorten’s 45% is brave, but, “unrealistic.”
In this one comment, Talkbull has exposed the the uselessness and outright quackery of 97% Doomsday Global Warming and any response.
With the fate of all life on Earth allegedly in the balance, you’d think you would need to be at 100%.
. . .
Worse Apocalypse. Ever.
That is a fact check.
60
“With the fate of all life on Earth allegedly in the balance, you’d think you would need to be at 100%.”
Maybe thats what Malcolm meant by “unrealistic”. Shorten is thinking too small.
60
What’s hot is the war mist’s scam;
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/whats_hot_is_the_warmists_scam/#commentsmore
40
“As far as the election goes in 2016, our only hope is to elect minor party and independent Senators to stop our two main parties from hobbling the nation. Start planning now.”
Too right, Union controlled Labor and the extreme Greens unofficial coalition partner would be a step too far however the Liberals led by the present leader and deputy leader and with their MP supporters are only a marginally better voting choice.
The above need a very hard kick in the backside and maybe they will learn that they are our representatives, not our masters.
70
Turdbull and Bishop took”Our”Democracy and threw it in the trash.
50
Reason: Self Interest, nothing more.
10
I stopped believing in The Devil about thirty years ago. I think I’ll revisit the concept in the light of recent events.
50
A Froot Loop fell out of the box at the #PeoplesClimate march in Brisbane, Australia.
There is no confirmation yet that it isn’t Bill Shorten in his climate fighting suit.
40
Epitomises the cloud mystery.
Shorten? Naah he doesn’t have B cups and there is a bulge.
30
I had no idea Adelaide had organised their annual Zombie Walk for today.
Say what you will about the future of CAGW, but to date no climate refugees have appeared despite numerous rumours to the contrary. Given that no climate refugees have appeared, and any systematic cause of death must create more refugees than deaths, it is quite certain that man-made global warming has not actually killed anybody yet.
Whilst uniformed soldiers and bee stings have each killed far more people in the last 10 years than terrorists have, it is equally true that terrorism has left climate change far behind in the bodycount.
Would these climate zombies dare to hold their walk in the middle of Paris? I guess we’ll never know.
10
The interview confirms the low level of intelligence of politicians in the Labor party and Greens. This also applies to the other side of politics. That is why I am voting ALA at the next election.
80
You have to be careful who gets elected to the Senate in the election in 2016, some of the ‘independent’ Senators that we have now are firm believers in CAGW theory and would like to do even more stupid things in the pursuit of the Green Nirvana. Some minor parties are as bad as the Greens.
91
ABC NEWS (and above)
Just exactly what does the phrase, “…those substantial reductions in carbon pollution levels will be decoupled” actually mean? The next sentence regarding the statement from the CSIRO, as written or spoken is incomprehensible. Sabra Lane neither sought clarification or definition.
The eco-marxist double speak could almost have been lifted verbatim from ‘Atlas Shrugged’. I hope the end is as well. It looks to me as though the eco-marxist Green meme requires the experience of crushing societal pain, as an atonement for the sin of progress against Gaia. This epitomises the unsustainable and must eventually bring about their political and social demise. Bring it on.
50
Good News for Some:
The World Mourns One of its Greats: Maurice Strong Dies, His Legacy Lives On
http://www.unep.org/newscentre/Default.aspx?DocumentID=26854&ArticleID=35597&l=en
41
Well that’s one evil, fascist, bastard gone. Now I know you’ve got a full plate guys, but it really is time the Committee for Aesthetic Deletions moved George Soros up the list.
02
sssshhhhh I am engrossed in the mathematics.
28/1000 X something = 45/100 X something = FA
where FA = SFA
50
45%? Labor got nuttin’ on The Greens.
90% by 2030!
40
The extreme Greens with regular donations from the unions that are supposed to represent people who work in jobs that will surely disappear if the emissions reduction madness continues to impact adversely on places of employment and national prosperity.
40
I should have added: Unions that receive taxpayer’s monies from Labor governments that rubber stamp approvals for government grants to the unions. A former finance bureaucrat from the Labor years 1983 to 1996, Dr.Des Moore, wrote in his book about those years that Labor “laundered” close to $100 million to their union masters via taxpayer funded grants, much of which was donated to the ALP (and Greens?) directly or indirectly via election campaign advertising and other campaign assistance.
The unions apparently spent about $20 million on the 2007 federal election campaign when Labor defeated the Howard Coalition. And by 2010 the unions had received the money back via government grants. State & Territories also make grants when Labor is in office.
The Royal Commission into trade union governance and corruption is an inquiry that refers witnesses to legal agencies if reason to do so is discovered during proceedings, over thirty referrals have been made during the two years of the TURC, and there are many calls for it to be extended for another year.
We are being ripped off, we also pay for elections to be held including some funding for candidates/parties.
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Very off-topic but in its way interesting, given the historical penchant of choosing Paris as a conference venue and of course the obvious, there’s nothing new under the sun including kollectiv derangement.
The Global Climate Summit (COP21) in Paris, where the countries of the World meet to discuss the means of controlling and mitigating the weather, largely by taxation is no less a manifestation of unadulterated group insanity than the stupidity and ignorance on historical display at International Eugenics Conferences held between 1912 and 1936 where ‘scientists, politicians, and social leaders to plan and discuss the application of programs to improve human heredity in the early twentieth century’.
Paris it seems is held in high regard as a venue for gatherings of high priests.
Curiously, the Eugenics logo has very clear Green eco-marxist parallels – tree of life, an image widely promoted and celebrated in the Green propaganda film ‘Avatar’ as a thinly disguised ‘tree of souls’.
It appears that the Global Eugenics conferences came to an end after 1936, eclipsed by the more pressing ambitions of the Nazis.
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Origens being The Fabian Society of England that was established in the late 1800s.
Most if not all Australian ALP MPs are Fabians and former PM Gillard who established the Socialist Forum soon after her university days merged the Forum into the Australian Fabian Society shortly before she was given the deputy leadership of the parliamentary ALP.
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Labor’s constitution states: “The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields”. This “socialist objective” was introduced in 1921, but has since been qualified by two further objectives: “maintenance of and support for a competitive non-monopolistic private sector” and “the right to own private property”. Labor governments have not attempted the “democratic socialisation” of any industry since the 1940s, when the Chifley government failed to nationalise the private banks, and in fact have privatised several industries such as aviation and banking. Labor’s current National Platform describes the party as “a modern social democratic party”, “the party of opportunity and security for working people” and “a party of active government”.
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In just 3 short months, Australia and Canada have morphed from being the voices of sanity on supposed climate change to those of crass stupidity.
In the meantime, there are signs the UK is beginning to ever so slowly move in the opposite direction, subsidies are being slashed on green energy and goofy projects like carbon capture are being abandoned. The inevitable blackouts and deaths from hypothermia next winter and thereafter will change everything and patience with the Green Blob’s machinations will evaporate.
Well, the next couple of weeks are going to see a huge morass of misinformed BS spoken about supposed climate change, supported by an unholy alliance of: bad science, tortured data, greenie biased media, dodgy activist groups, unscrupulous politicians, Klimate Kult faithful and sundry Paris-ites.
As a result, the Western World, because of the sad quality of its current leaders, may commit itself to a future of economic poverty for no reason whatsoever, other than the massaging of the smug egos of its ‘save the world’ obsessed politicians.
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And you have to love the wording of this headline. “Turnbull meets his Canadian counterpart” certainly got that right.
http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/11/28/turnbull-meets-trudeau-malta/
They are standing next to each other in the group photo. Trudeau has just pledged over 2 billion to the whipround and do you think Malcolm is going to let this young upstart trump him with his Canadian pocket change…. not a chance. Malcolm wants to lead!
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The Aussie Waffle meets Canadian Maple Syrup.
Now who will provide the Ice Cream?
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The taxpayers.
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Indeed. Those very ‘leaders’ would be crucified, flayed alive and disemboweled if a critical, hard nosed, scientifically literature, freedom loving, fourth estate existed to truly roast them in the ivory garrets. The COP21 clima-pantomime and its predecessors simply wouldn’t have taken place.
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Typo alert. Wrong reading glasses. Used the blurred ones I usually reserve for watching the news.
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reminder COP21 is starting a day early:
25 Nov: Xinhua: Climate change talks to start one day before official opening
A special working group involved in the Paris climate change talks will start its session a day earlier than scheduled to give more time to finalize negotiations on the draft Paris Climate Package, an official announced on Wednesday.
The second session of the Ad Hoc Working Group on the Durban Platform for Enhanced Action (ADP) will be resumed on November 29 in Paris, Executive Secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change Christiana Figueres.
The meeting was initially scheduled for November 30 when the official opening ceremony will be held in Le Bourget…
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-11/26/c_134855375.htm
27 Nov: Politico: COP21 by numbers
A look at the biggest-ever climate change conference.
By Helena O’Rourke-Potocki
40,000 people
There’s going to be a crowd. Organizers expect 40,000 attendees, making it the largest so-called Conference of Parties (COP) ever…
This year’s higher numbers are largely due to growing worries about global warming…
79.5 million Euros for free public transport
As part of an effort to minimize the conference’s carbon footprint, all accredited participants will be provided with free transport passes for all greater Paris transportation networks for free — at a total cost of 79.5 million Euros…
***120,000 police and soldiers
France will deploy 2,800 police officers outside the main venues for the COP21…
8,000 officers would bolster security on France’s exterior borders during the conference.
“In total, there will be 120,000 policemen, gendarmes and soldiers that will be deployed throughout the territory,” Cazeneuve said at a press conference.
French forces are not alone. At every Conference of Parties, U.N. security forces ensure the security of the Blue Zone — the negotiation space of the conference only accessible to people in possession of a special U.N., accreditation. So the 10,000 government representatives will be protected by the Blue Helmets…
http://www.politico.eu/article/cop21-by-numbers/
***120,000 figure is accurate. according to AFP: He (Cazeneuve) said 120,000 police and troops had already been mobilised across France since the attacks on November 13, which have triggered a state of emergency that will remain in place until February.
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29 Nov: Australian: Dennis Shanahan: Commonwealth wants legally-binding COP21 result
THE Commonwealth has pledged itself towards an “ambitious” and legally-binding outcome from the world climate change summit, saying it was “deeply concerned” about the disproportionate threat to its most vulnerable members.
LEADERS from the 53-country family, which represents around a third of the world’s population, on Saturday came up with a “message of Commonwealth ambition and determination” for the COP21 talks in Paris, which kick off on Monday.
“We are committed to working towards an ambitious, equitable, inclusive, balanced, rules-based and durable outcome of COP21 that includes a legally-binding agreement,” they said in a Statement on Climate Action…
Because its membership includes industrialised G7 powers like Britain and Canada, emerging giants like India and tiny island microstates such as the Maldives, agreement in the Commonwealth has historically boded well for deals being struck beyond its bounds.
Among the few things concluded at the flop 2009 Copenhagen global climate change summit were things agreed beforehand by the Commonwealth.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/chogm-urges-strong-climate-action/story-fn3dxix6-1227626950970
Canada changed its mind!
27 Nov: Reuters: David Ljunggren: Canada backs U.S.: climate deal should not be legally binding
Canada on Friday backed the U.S. approach to major climate change talks in Paris, saying any carbon reduction targets agreed at the negotiations should not be legally binding.
The announcement by Environment Minister Catherine McKenna could irritate host nation France, which wants any deal to be enforceable.
That would be politically impossible for the administration of U.S. President Barack Obama, however, since it is clear the Republican-dominated Congress would not ratify any treaty imposing legally binding cuts on the United States.
“Everyone wants to see the United States be part of this treaty,” McKenna told reporters on a conference call before flying to Paris.
“There are political realities in the United States … they cannot have legally binding targets. We don’t expect that the targets will be internationally legally binding,” she said…
While Trudeau will not provide a new greenhouse emissions target in Paris, he has committed to coming up with a goal with Canada’s 10 provinces within 90 days of returning from the talks.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/27/us-climatechange-canada-idUSKBN0TG1YF20151127#BTfkzSyTTSIvcTOP.97
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good luck keeping up with the semantics – France no longer irritated, it seem!
28 Nov: CNBC: Financial Times: France bows to Obama and backs down on climate ‘treaty’
by Anne-Sylvaine Chassany in Paris and Pilita Clark in London
France has offered a key concession to the US on the eve of historic climate talks in Paris, saying a new global climate accord will not be called a “treaty” and might not contain legally binding emissions reduction targets.
In a significant climbdown, Laurent Fabius, French foreign minister, said signatories to the planned deal would still be legally required to meet many of its terms but most likely not the carbon-cutting goals underpinning the agreement…
“The accord needs to be legally binding. It’s not just literature,” Mr Fabius told the Financial Times. “But it will probably have a dual nature. Some of the clauses will be legally binding.”
Mr Fabius, who is to chair the UN climate conference, added: “Another question is whether the Paris accord as a whole will be called a treaty. If that’s the case, then it poses a big problem for President Barack Obama because a treaty has to pass through Congress.”
The comments are among the first by a senior official to signal a willingness to accommodate the world’s second largest carbon emitter to achieve a successful deal…
But Mr Fabius said: “It would be pointless to come up with an accord that would be eventually rejected by either China or the US.” …
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/28/france-bows-to-obama-and-backs-down-on-climate-treaty.html
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almost no MSM have carried the GLOBESCAN survey (BBC link on jo’s previous two threads):
27 Nov: Politico: Sara Stefanini: Public support for strong climate deal slumps
Only four countries have a majority in favor of ambitious CO2 targets vs eight in 2009.
http://www.politico.eu/article/poll-finds-lower-support-for-ambitious-climate-deal-compared-to-2009/
27 Nov: Breitbart: James Delingpole: On the eve of COP21 Paris talks: World just doesn’t care about global warming any more
The survey, conducted by GlobeScan for the BBC, could scarcely have come at a worst time for the global environmental movement…
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/11/27/eve-cop21-paris-talks-world-just-doesnt-care-global-warming/
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sorry – this wasn’t on the previous thread, so posting it here:
must read all. links to Globescan.
27 Nov: BBC: Matt McGrath: COP21: Public support for tough climate deal ‘declines’
Public support for a strong global deal on climate change has declined, according to a poll carried out in 20 countries.
Only four now have majorities in favour of their governments setting ambitious targets at a global conference in Paris.
In a similar poll before the Copenhagen meeting in 2009, eight countries had majorities favouring tough action.
The poll has been provided to the BBC by research group GlobeScan (LINK).
Just under half of all those surveyed viewed climate change as a “very serious” problem this year, compared with 63% in 2009…
The findings will make sober reading for global political leaders…
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34900474
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could someone excerpt a bit of this Andrew Gilligan piece in the UK Tele, as my monthly quota is up!
Emission impossible as EU fails to police main anti-pollution scheme
http://www.telegraph.co.uk › News › Earth › Energy
1 hour ago – Attempts to stamp out endemic fraud in the EU’s flagship Emissions Trading Scheme are “not adequate”, say auditors…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/12022964/Emission-impossible-as-EU-fails-to-police-main-anti-pollution-scheme.html
probably relates to this auditors’ report:
12 Nov: Breitbart: Paul Nuttall MEP: How The EU Funded Al Qaeda: Terrorists Make Millions From Carbon Scheme While British Workers Are Left Unemployed
(Paul Nuttall is the Deputy Leader of the UK Independence Party.)
The popular Corriere newspaper in Italy reported that in 2010, U.S. Navy Seals searching for the terrorist cohorts of Osama Bin Laden along the Pakistan/Afghan border found bills related to a cache of ETS certificates across Europe, the Middle East and Hong Kong. This triggered Italian prosecutors to investigate 38 suspects from companies involved in the ETS VAT scam. One of the bills in the Al Qaeda shelter led to a 40 year old British/Pakistani national. It would appear that he was trying to take £1.17 billion in VAT through the ETS scam, which he allegedly laundered through slush funds and investments in Dubai…
This carousel fraud involving the trade of emission credits in 2008 and 2009 amounted to a loss of €5 billion in VAT for national governments…
And what about the British steel worker? Well because of higher energy prices pushed up by this ETS scheme, as well as the below-cost dumping of Chinese steel on the European market, he and many like him have lost their jobs…
Given the time that has elapsed since 2010, you would think the EU would have sorted this out wouldn’t you? It’s the EU, of course not.
“The risk of value added tax (VAT) fraud on EU ETS allowances is consequently still not fully addressed in the European Union”, the EU auditors’ report of July 2015 said.
But why should we be surprised. The Financial Times revealed that the European Commission knew what was going on for two years about VW emissions and did absolutely nothing…
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/12/how-the-eu-funded-al-qaeda-terrorists-make-millions-from-carbon-scheme-while-british-workers-are-left-unemployed/
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28 Nov: UK Telegraph: Christopher Booker: Drought did not cause terror crisis
Few of the Paris climate conference delegates, or Prince Charles, would be capable of producing any proper scientific evidence to justify their beliefs..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/12022872/Drought-did-not-cause-the-Syria-terror-crisis.html
28 Nov: UK Telegraph: Christopher Booker: Christopher Booker: Tim Yeo verdict applies also to his views on energy
It’s a shame the judge’s remarks were directed only at Yeo’s confusion of his parliamentary role with his business interests…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/12022885/Tim-Yeo-verdict-applies-also-to-his-views-on-energy.html
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27 Nov: Redd-Monitor: The Swedish Energy Agency has frozen carbon credits purchases from Norwegian plantation firm Green Resources
The Swedish Energy Agency is the sole purchaser of carbon credits from Green Resources’ Kachung plantation in Uganda. So far the Swedish Energy Agency has paid out US$137,000 to the project for 30,000 carbon credits.
On 3 November 2015, the Swedish Energy Agency announced that it was freezing remaining payments of US$4 million. Swedish Energy Agency has given Green Resources a list of nine items based on concerns raised by the local communities…
Carbon violence
Last year, the Oakland Institute produced a report about Green Resources’ plantations in Uganda. The report, titled, “The Darker Side of Green: Plantation Forestry and Carbon Violence in Uganda“, exposed the social and environmental impacts of the plantation operations…
The claims about corporate environmental and social responsibility simply don’t match up with the reality on the ground for many thousands of people directly affected by company activities. It is unacceptable for carbon trading schemes to result in forced evictions and increased food insecurity while delivering little to no improvement on access to health, sanitation, and education. Private and public financiers of the project, including the World Bank and other Scandinavian countries should be compelled to follow Sweden and immediately stop their support for this scandalous project.”
The project is financed by international aid agencies, including Sweden, NORFUND, the Norwegian investment fund for developing countries, its Finnish equivalent FINNFUND, and the World Bank’s International Finance Corporation…
http://www.redd-monitor.org/2015/11/27/the-swedish-energy-agency-has-frozen-carbon-credits-purchases-from-norwegian-plantation-firm-green-resources/
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OMG – The Byron Bay Greenies are now creating their own renewable energy power company:
http://www.enovaenergy.com.au/
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Speaking of fantasy, I hypothesise that all environmental campaigners go completely ga-ga upon turning age 60.
Let the cherry-picking begin… with two initial examples:
P.Moore. https://twitter.com/EcoSenseNow/status/608321695833825280
B.Geldof. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/342876/Sir-Bob-Geldof-All-humans-will-die-before-2030
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Time for some brave Australians to step forward.
Change your name to; None of the above.Z1 thro number of house and senate seats.
Or Z1 None of the above.
Whatever it takes to get that logo on the bottom of the ballot.
Then start the whisper campaign… “This time tell the Pollies what you really think of them.
Run a few public education adds on taxing air versus actual taxpayers lives.
Seems none of them can be trusted, once they are trapped in the ministerial office, Yes Minister kicks in.
Elected wanna bees,held hostage by government kleptocracy.
Only one policy.
Fire them all.
There is nothing government can do,that private citizens cannot do better.
Government has only one function, which is to engage a bunch of actors in putting on a morality play for the fools and bandits.
Both without, thats defence and within, thats law and order.
But given the cancerous way bureaucracies grow, perhaps volunteers had better take one both functions.
Me I am hoisting a glass to Maurice Strong, a glass or three, the world is a better place today.
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A better alternative to Cop 21 is the Paris Climate Challenge. Let’s hope they get some media coverage. They include Monckton, Carter, Plimer, Salby, Morner, etc.
http://jennifermarohasy.com/2015/11/bob-carter-warms-with-eiffel-tower-descent/
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Like strapping on concrete Reeboks and hoping to float. I feel sorry for Bob and Nils.
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Malcolm, you are not a leader, and you lack judgement.
And your waffling is embarrassing.
It is much easier for you to whisper to journalists. Pity you are sneaky and do that anonymously.
20
Sydney Grammar School and University of Sydney, you are well known.
10
Is it just me … or is LABOR just a five letter word without any meaning anymore? What worker? What labour? What future? Labor have turned into the Greens even after the Labor-Green government collapsed, for exactly the reason that Labor voters got fed up with their party becoming polarized on virtue signalling that isn’t even related to the worker or their rights.
Is someone blackmailing Bill Shorten with ‘video tapes’ or something? … because this is the only possibility I can come up with to explain this raving lunatic.
It has just gone from bad, to worse, to utterly horrific:
1) Abbott had to cow tow to the mantra that, yes, humans cause catastrophic global warming just because Apparatchik stacked actors like at the ABC were hammering down on him as well as even the corporate press (except the Murdoch press of course). So skeptics lost our voice completely.
2) Then we get Malcolm ‘Goldman Sachs’ Turnbull ‘elected’ via dodgy polls and not an election, who promptly sells us down the river with Julie Bishop smiling at the helm.
3) Now Bill Shorten starts raving like a lunatic trying to lever the Libs to promise not to slit our wrists a dozen times, but two dozen times!
What ‘debate’?
There never was a debate.
There never was any science.
There never was a democracy on this island.
There is no Demos, just a population of Proles being taxed into oblivion and dumbed down so much that the average Socialist doesn’t even understand that a Carbon Trading Market is a CAPITAL MARKET!! I can’t believe it. I’ve talked to socialist minded people as I always try to engage them in discussion (I can’t lose all hope after all), who believe in APGW and they all think PARIS 2015 is about saving the planet and fighting capitalism (!), and they can’t even understand why a Govt Mandated Carbon Credits and Derivatives Market ‘solution’ is a a Monopoly Capitalists best dream come true!
Even Karl Marx would be turning over in his grave at how low the IQ of the average modern Socialist is … and Bill raves on … and on … and on. Is there anyone at all in the Labor Party who is sick and tired of prolonging their broken cause? Even one of them?
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“Look at what the last 15 years have done for cars…”
The color change is a decided improvement. 🙂
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