JoNova

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EV needs 13 freezing hours to get 650 km with 3 charging stops and no heater

VW E-up! Electric Vehicle

VW e-Up                                | Photo by M 93

A German car reporter bought a new VW e-Up car in Wolfsburg and drove the 650 km to Munich. But the weather was freezing and to get further on each charge Lisa Brack kept the heating off most of the time. She still needed three charging stops and took 13 hours to get home.

Gosselin said that a diesel car would usually finish that trip in seven hours without a fuel stop (and with a heater running).

13 hours of driving and charging

 The subfreezing weather was a  major drawback for the VW e-car. According to the kreiszeitung.de, “the heating stayed off for almost the entire journey in freezing temperature” in order not to draw down the battery so quickly. This meant that to survive the trip, Brack had to take along a generous supply of “hats, scarves, gloves and generally warm clothing”…

According to the kreiszeitung.de, she made the crucial mistake of charging up too seldom and wasted much time charging the batteries to 100% instead of 80% (the last 20% take the longest). “Charge faster, accept a little less range and charge again earlier – but again faster.”

“One more charge alone would have saved 1.5 hours,” she commented.

So with better planning  she only needed an extra 4.5 hours. Imagine if she’d had passengers and suitcases and her EV was 10 years old?

h/t Jim Simpson

9.7 out of 10 based on 108 ratings

257 comments to EV needs 13 freezing hours to get 650 km with 3 charging stops and no heater

  • #
    Scissor

    You won’t own heat and you will be happy.

    570

    • #
      tonyb

      Scissor

      Reliable and cheap warmth and light is one of the most basic human rights, as is access to clean water, shelter, a good toilet and nutritious food. That the elite are quite deliberately removing that right in order to display a misguided green conscience is disturbing

      643

      • #
        Wet Mountains

        “…one of the most basic human rights.” I am curious, who provides those basic human rights, and who determines the ever-lengthening list of basic human rights? Good toilets are now a basic human right? My goodness. How about a soft, quality paper to go with the toilet requirements? Cheap and reliable heat? Who do I contact to deliver dozens of cheap cords of wood so I can reliably heat my house? If it is cheap to me, how can the person cutting, splitting and delivering to me make a living? It’s a basic human right that I get it cheap, so someone else has to serve at a lesser standard of living so I can get it cheap. Who determines cheap? What about cheap and reliable cooling? Shouldn’t that be a basic human right also? If I work, and sweat, and plan, and save, and practice self-discipline, who has the right to take my work and provide basic human rights to someone else. If I choose to give away what I produce to help others, that is my call. Basic human rights are what you work to provide, not what someone else provides for you.
        I eagerly await a comprehensive list of “Basic Human Rights”, but I enthusiastically await to see who writes it!

        400

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Great outline there;
          if only our leaders would stop selling off the products of our hard work and efforts to buy votes.

          They’ve been doing that for fifty years now and it hasn’t been good for anyone, except the politicians.

          [Let’s get back to EV’s. – Jo]

          121

        • #
          Mike Jonas

          “Rights” is an over-used and frequently mis-used word. I suggest in this case that reliable and cheap warmth and light are among the most basic human services, and that the aims of any administration should include delivery of those services to all their citizens not just the elite. For any administration to deliberately withdraw those services, when it is well within their capability to deliver them, is – in tonyb’s words – disturbing.

          130

        • #
          Gerry

          I think Tonyb using the word “rights” is unfortunate. These are needs more than rights. We have a personal responsibility, in my view, to ensure we have food, shelter, warmth and safety. If we can’tprovide them ourselves then maybe someone can help us with them eg friends, family, government.

          130

        • #
          Marc Major

          And further; if we recognize that certain rights adhere to all within Australia how do we ensure that those rights are protected? I am definitely not a bleeding heart liberal; far, far from it. Yet it concerns me that a few years ago, we here in WA enacted a law specifically against Bikies (and continue to do so). I don’t like Bikies. However, our laws state (paraphrasing extremely loosely) that if you’re a member of a Bikie gang, the Police can search and seize your property and person just for being a Bikie gang member.

          My concern is that, is it moral that laws can be made discriminating against others simply because they are members of a group or organisation frowned upon by others? I happen to be a pure blood; should I be incarcerated (or discriminated against) simply because I belong to that group? BTW, I love using that very appropriate colloquialism – kinda reminds me of the TV Series, True Blood; kinda makes me feel lethal.

          Nonetheless, at the moment, my wife and I are simply sitting at home watching all the madness pass by. We’re retired and both fully dosed with IVM, HCL Vit D,C,B,Budesonide, etc for over two years now. We both feel comfortable with weathering the storm and holding the line.

          BTW, the 1% Betadine solution (nose spray and gargle) is not as bad as it may first sound. We go out; come home and we gargle. Meh.

          Occasionally, we sally forth from home and shop for supplies. It now appears that our actions may be seditious and dangerous to others. Further, I hear that we may soon be denied many services simply because we are pure bloods. Is the Australian Constitution concerned only with the protection of the rights of some citizens and groups or all?

          In America they have the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to the US Constitution). The Bill of Rights simply states that there are certain things that the Federal government can never legislate. What protections do we have here in Australia against a rampant and rogue state (Federal or local) to legislate whatever comes to mind? Look at WA at the moment with Labor holding an incredible majority in both houses of the WA parliament. In WA, who guards the guards?

          [This is important but all off topic. Please take “rights” to the bottom of the thread, and stop hijacking the topic. – Jo]

          110

          • #
            Terry

            Is the Australian Constitution concerned only with the protection of the rights of some citizens and groups…?

            Well yes, at least our “so very modern” interpretation of it. Where have you been?

            10

            • #
              Marc Major

              LOL. I’ve been stuck under the flower pot. It’s dark and warm and difficult to distinguish the shape of things.

              20

          • #
            Forrest Gardener

            In Australia the commonwealth constitution limits the legislative power of the commonwealth. The only limit on state legislative power is what is reserved or ceded to the commonwealth.

            For example changing the term of the commonwealth parliament would require a referendum. Changing the term of the state parliament requires nothing more than passing legislation.

            All it that prevents a state government from going the full totalitarian is the risk that they might find themselves voted out next time.

            10

            • #
              Marc Major

              Hi Forrest,

              Does the Australian constitution limit (or prohibit) the Federal Parliament from legislating that certain groups of people may be proscribed and denied access to Federal Government benefits? For example, does the constitution prevent the Parliament from denying unvaxxed people access to CentreLink benefits, Medicare benefits or hospital services? How about access to a store? Does the constitution prevent certain groups from being singled out based on the status of their health and thus face additional taxes that others do not; simply based on the status of their health?

              So to keep things on topic; we allow lousy, expensive, range and time limited vehicles on the market simply because they enjoy the financial favour of the Govt. Does the constitution prevent that?

              Again, we need a bill of rights. Not that that would necessarily discourage patronage being extended to electric cars and their manufacturers.

              Cheers,

              Marc

              10

              • #
                Forrest Gardener

                I misunderstood the requests by Jo to take this elsewhere as requests to individuals. Please delete anything I wrote as you see fit.

                As usual thanks to Jo and everybody who makes a positive contribution on this forum.

                00

        • #
    • #
      OldOzzie

      Think how quicly the charge time of your mobile phone degrades and apply to an EV

      The Audi’s RS Q E-Tron Hybrid Off-Roader Makes Dakar History is an interesting compromise

      All three rally racers successfully conquered some of the most challenging rally stages in the world and covered almost 15,000 desert miles (24,000 kilometers). Overall, Audi prototypes reigned in 14 podium results and four stage wins, which is a historic result for Volkswagen’s sub-brand. During the Dakar rally, the car had to complete daily stages, which stretched over 800 kilometers.

      Three-time Dakar Rally Champion Carlos Sainz in the #202 RS Q e-tron led the charge for Audi with two first- and second-place finishes, as well as three third-place finishes. Sainz came in 12th place overall with a time of 42 hours, 12 minutes, 24 seconds behind the rally winner. Note big time loss due to navigation errors on opening stage.

      What is most incredible about the RS Q e-tron project is the massive scale of comprehensive development and rapid prototyping that all happened in a matter of months. Things like vehicle development and motorsports programs typically take years on end. Audi brought this all together in only months. You can watch their Road To Dakar 2022 Youtube Playlist that documents first-hand accounts from many key players involved.

      https://www.audi.com/en/company/audi-sport/audi-racing-models/rs-q-e-tron.html sums it all up

      Because there are no charging opportunities in the desert, Audi has chosen an innovative charging concept: On board of the Audi RS Q e-tron¹, there is the highly efficient TFSI engine from the DTM. It is part of an energy converter that charges the high-voltage battery while driving. Since the combustion engine is operated in the particularly efficient range of between 4,500 and 6,000 rpm, the specific consumption is well below 200 grams per kWh.

      The drivetrain of the Audi RS Q e-tron¹ is electric. The front and rear axles are both fitted with a motor-generator unit (MGU) from the current Audi e-tron FE07 Formula E car. Only minor modifications had to be made to use the MGU in the Dakar Rally.

      A third MGU, of identical design, is part of the energy converter and serves to recharge the high-voltage battery while driving. In addition, energy is recuperated during braking. The battery weighs about 370 kilograms and has a capacity of around 50 kWh.

      https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2022/01/19/1095881-audi-rs-q-e-tron-dakar-rally-successful-start-into.html

      71

      • #
        Dennis

        The team must have had a large output diesel generator for each race vehicle to recharge from in between race stages.

        20

        • #
          Analitik

          From the audi site link

          Energy converter 2.0 liter four-cylinder turbo engine from the DTM coupled via a shaft with a generator..
          Fuel tank capacity Max. 295 liters

          So it’s a full on hybrid rather than an EV, just with a fully indirect drivetrain – that turbo’d 2 liter petrol engine running in that rpm range would be putting out over 100kW which would not only allow the piddly 50kW battery to act as a KERS booster but also serve to recharge that battery when stopped.

          80

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Had to look up KERS.
            🙂

            30

          • #
            OldOzzie

            act as a KERS booster

            same as F1 Racing Car

            20

          • #

            That 2 ltr engine is from Audis last DTM race car, and is likely capable of over 400 kw if run to the max !
            The Electric drive motors on each axle are also capable of over 250 kW each,
            ….so with some help from the battery the power to the wheels is potentially 500+ kW
            But remember this is built for endurance desert racing where reliability is high priority so the actual power will be taylored to the particular type of stage each day by the magic of computers and software .
            .and yes, im sure Audi would have had a stationary generator set at the overnight service points to recharge the pack

            10

            • #
              Analitik

              The Audi site says the drivetrain has a 300kW capacity. My comment on the engine output was in the expectation that the car would be tuned conservatively for reliability and economy. A 400 kW output in an engine of that capacity would require frequent replacement and desert racing doesn’t require super high power for extended periods.

              For short bursts, the battery would allow the boost needed over the steady state output that the tsi engine would provide.

              10

  • #
    tonyb

    To be fair most of the likely EV drivers do not live in such freezing temperatures as this example, or would choose to set out on a long journey at that time of the afternoon.

    however in the real world, EV’s need to be capable of being a family car, so must go a decent distance in cold, wet weather at night. In other words, with several people and their luggage, heater on, radio on, windscreen wipers going, headlights on.

    Unfortunately in this real world the range of the EV drops dramatically.

    Its a bit like petrol cars whose manufacturers claim say 55 miles per gallon but that is under extremely favourable laboratory conditions. So we really need makers of EV cars to publish realistic figures, as unlike fossil fuel cars with an EV you can’t easily pull into a petrol station and after a 5 minute refill be able to go on your way for another 500 miles.

    EV drivers are buying on green sentiment a vehicle unlikely to be suited to hard and frequent use, unless that only involves a short commute to work

    384

    • #

      I’ve asked several EV owners why they bought it and many cite green concerns. It just goes to show how powerful emotional manipulation can be when to comes to pushing lies destined to transform the free world into a dystopian Marxist caliphate.

      410

      • #
        ando

        You should have let them know that there is a net increase in ’emissions’ over the full life cycle of these vehicles to burst their green bubbles.
        And how where they charging these green machines? Fairy dust?

        140

    • #
      Will

      A little hopeful to think that this won’t be forced upon everyone else
      by the same people who gave us Covid and the “vaccines”.
      Just look at Californias Trucking disaster to see their aims and the effects of such.

      320

    • #
      bobby b

      “To be fair most of the likely EV drivers do not live in such freezing temperatures as this example, or would choose to set out on a long journey at that time of the afternoon.”

      My home is close to the Canadian border. It’s a cold place. Much colder than Germany. But my federal government is pressuring our automakers to make all of their product into EV’s.

      So, according to what you said, I will simply not be a likely driver.

      And that appears to be the point of this massive fraud.

      410

      • #

        I assume you are much too sensible to buy the vehicle as your only mode of transport nor would set out on a long cold journey way beyond the capabilities of the vehicles range.

        However from what I read of increasingly woke Canadians it may be that your fellow citizens would be enthusiastic purchasers. I hope you can reassure me that Canadians will shun Ev’s and the govt will have to back down?

        82

        • #
          bobby b

          “I assume you are much too sensible to buy the vehicle as your only mode of transport nor would set out on a long cold journey way beyond the capabilities of the vehicles range.”

          I am, but my federal government is striving to ensure that EV’s are my ONLY choice. ICE-powered vehicles have been sunsetted in federal legislation.

          What else can I buy at that point? I have a sled, I guess, and dogs seem cheap . . .

          50

      • #
        yarpos

        In the Australian context it would be problematic travelling in summer running AC and fans for cooling. Or maybe just go 1960s retro and run without it, maybe put the beach towel over seat to complete the vibe?

        Still the genius answer is to stop more often in very cold or very hot conditions, not really so great as you get older. Never really get this as the manufacturers dont let the charging system have 100% of actual battery capacity anyway, they are operating with significant margins. Recall when Tesla kindly turned on extra capacity for people fleeing a hurricane in Florida?

        40

      • #
        Hanrahan

        Buy a Toyota hybrid and keep it “forever”.

        20

        • #
          Bean

          I live a little out of Canberra and in my area there is a Tesla model X I think it is, I was interested so had a yarn to the bloke about it, the vehicle cost $180K when he bought it, he lives in a remote area so had to install a $30K solar array to charge it! Admits that even though the supposed range is around 500 Klm it will only do around 300klm real world and that is with the A/C off.
          When asked as to why he bought it he sprouted the usual green propaganda, save the planet yada yada yada then made the surprising admission, he had to go back to Canberra to his other house as the property out here was just a weekender……….without a hint of irony.

          120

          • #
            Analitik

            Wow, so during the week, while the sun is shining, those 100-120 solar panels are just feeding into the grid. Yep – very efficient allocation of resource.

            30

            • #
              Lewis P Buckingham

              Until they stop the feed in rebate and you are left with the depreciating asset.

              20

            • #
              Bean

              Nup no grid to feed into as he is off grid, (lots of power infrastructure set up that is not being used!!) same as myself actually but I have installed all of my own power needs with no rebates and have been like this for 7 plus years due to my choices not mandated madness.

              20

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      The EV thing is like the vietnam war…it was never meant to be won, but rather a societal trojan horse for attitudinal change, in this case to accept being hamstrung by poor range to “save the planet”.

      31

    • #
      OldOzzie

      Road salt, electric vehicles, drugs, smartphones can all be affected by really cold temps

      Cold weather doesn’t just affect how the roads are treated, but also how a car runs. While typical internal combustion engine vehicles can see gas milage drop by about 20 in cold weather, the extreme cold tends to have a more pronounced effect on electric vehicles.

      A study conducted by AAA found that an electric car’s operating range will drop by an average of 41 when the temperature drops below 20 and the heater is in use. This means that for every 100 miles of combined urban and highway driven, the range at 20 would be reduced to a whopping 59 miles.

      40

      • #
        Lewis P Buckingham

        Just think what will happen on a 40C day as a bushfire approaches.
        As the battery heats up it begins to fail, range drops,the a/c is full blast draining the battery, Range shock, then the power goes out so no recharging.
        For large parts of the Australian continent, a pure battery car would be dangerous to rely on in extreme heat, let alone cold.

        40

    • #
      Dennis

      And as Henry Ford pointed out to potential customers for his Ford Model T cars, unlike electric cars you can carry spare cans of “gas” for driving out of town where in those early 1900 days few petrol stations existed.

      50

    • #
      Liberator

      If we’re not running car heaters down under, we’re running air-cons in the car, flat out, because we’re getting soft. I’m soft, why should I freeze or cook in my car when we have the technology to make myself more comfortable? If my car runs out of petrol its a 5-10 min job to refuel and I wont have to cook or freeze. How were they demisting the windscreen when they had no heating, it would fog up pretty damn quickly with breath on a cold windscreen.

      70

      • #
        OldOzzie

        we’re running air-cons in the car, flat out

        Golden Rule always run Air Con in Summer and Winter as it lubricates the seals and hoses

        1994 Series 80 Toyota Landcrusier owned since new – A/C runs superbly – 2006 Honda Jazz A/C excellent – always on

        2. Operate weekly.

        The best way to damage the air conditioning in your vehicle is by not using it. By running your air conditioning on a weekly basis, you’ll keep the compressor seals lubricated and ensure the hoses do not harden.

        We recommended this all year round. Yes, even in the colder months. It’s worth noting, during those months you get out of the car for the next bit. Make sure the thermostat is on it’s lowest setting, and the fan is at the highest speed.

        20

      • #
        yarpos

        Doesnt mist up that much if you maintain ventilation.

        I restored and drove for a couple of years a 1960 Morris Major, and it had no heater. Considered an option at the time (odd as the BOM keeps telling us the past was so cold)

        If you maintain airflow it stays clear, although its a bit brisk in a VIC high country winter. Wouldnt work of course for those with life threatening cold. Last resort was the cloth on the shelf (it didnt have a glove box either)

        In the end I wimped out and put in a little 300W electric heater which did a great job in a small space.

        30

    • #
      Marc Major

      I’m more inclined to think that most EV owners DON’T buy on green sentiment. Instead, they buy to demonstrate that they own their own version of the little red book. Every faithful and true communist party member of China possessed a copy of Mao’s little red book whether they could afford it or not. Why? Because it contained the thoughts of Chairman Mao.

      Thus, whether or not you can afford one (little red book or EV), you have to have one in order to demonstrate your faithfulness to the cause and avoid being ostracized (or worse).

      So, I don’t think it’s about sentiment, utility, pleasure or anything else other than to demonstrate membership.

      51

  • #

    “Imagine if she’d had passengers and suitcases and her EV was 10 years old?”

    Or a toddler locked in a car seat screaming and yelling about being cold and bored.

    390

  • #
    John R Smith

    The real purpose of EVs is to make personal transportation unaffordable for regular people.

    650

    • #
      Deano

      And the roads themselves are being made unpleasant to use. Consider these features of modern western city driving (might vary from country to country):
      Endless ‘roadworks’ slow down sections and lane closure bottlenecks with no roadworks happening for weeks.
      Street parking disallowed or replaced with paid parking.
      Parking fee increases outstripping inflation year after year.
      Speed cameras down the bottom of hills or directly after speed limit decreases.
      Traffic lights timed to cause maximum disruption to major road flows.
      Cyclists being treated like Royalty with laws giving them blanket protection to ride like morons without consequence.
      Road rage incidents ignored by the cops.
      General police presence on the roads non-existent allowing dangerous drivers to do as they please.
      Victims of tailgating told to suck it up and don’t retaliate by police (official police traffic branch advice in Western Australia).

      They don’t want anyone on the roads because “Everyone can work from home.”

      40

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    Many years ago I left school and got a job.
    The first year I rode my push bike to work and uni.

    In the second year I bought a motor scooter and with more savings bought a 1959 VW motor car for year three.

    It was second hand and had over 100,000 miles on the clock.

    On one trip I drove it all the way to the top of Mount Kosciusco.

    You couldn’t do that in an electric car today.

    460

    • #
      sophocles

      It was second hand and had over 100,000 miles on the clock.

      Ah, it was “run in.”

      170

    • #
      yarpos

      Why would a tourist drive to Kosciuszko be a problem?

      Should be a doodle, just a time consuming doddle depending where you are coming from.

      10

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        They locked the gate.

        20

        • #
          OldOzzie

          Gate is locked at Charlottes’s Pass

          Made to top of Mt Kosciuszko in 1962 in reverse for last 3 Kms in 1947 Ford Prefect, with one of my mates poring water into radiator – have photo of Ford Prefect next to Surveying Tripod on top of Mt Kosciuszko – Finishing off Outback Trip to Bourke – Louth Tipla road to Wilcannia, White Cliffs, Broken Hill to Adelaide, back via Mt Gambier and Victorian High Country – today you would use 4WD on those dirt roads of then

          Owned from new 62 1/2 VW 1200 – Outback trips and Rallying – Great Car till written off in 1965 by Oldie in middle of day turning in front of me saying “I did not see you” – full safety harness saved me from any injury

          30

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            I went up in about ’67.

            My grandfather used to reverse up some hills out the back of NovoCastria because of petrol flow issues.

            30

            • #
              Graeme No.3

              Back in the 1930’s etc. Model T Fords would all reverse up Willunga Hill (south side of McLaren Vale) as front on the petrol moved away from the engine.
              These days the State Government runs backwards downhill as they’ve run out of fuel.

              40

        • #
          yarpos

          so you couldnt do it in any car. Oddly I thought you were making a point about electric cars.

          20

    • #
      Dennis

      I owned a VW sedan and after I fitted quality shock absorbers, a heavier front sway bar and an anti-roll spring side to side across the rear suspension it’s road holding was almost Mini Minor equivalent.

      And some engine modifications to fuel and exhaust systems.

      10

      • #
        OldOzzie

        Yep VW with Koni’s all round, wide wheels at rear, as 62 1/2 VW Torsion Bar Front end and EMPI CAMBER COMPENSATOR for rear swing axle

        Type 1 Beetles produced in 1965 and earlier came from the factory with a Linkpin pivot torsion arm front suspension. This setup allows for full cycling of the suspension without the binding limits inherent in ball joints. This makes the Linkpin setup more ideal for offroad use since you are able to benefit from potentially much greater suspension travel. This same lack of binding also makes linkpin setups more desirable for those that choose to lower their VWs as far as they can go. The front beam has two torsion tube which are 4 3/4 inches center to center.

        20

        • #

          The VW beetle used torsion bar suspension right up to the “71 Super beetle” .
          Torsion bar rear also. Very simple to adjust ride height all round.
          Remember,.. many of the off road race buggies used the VW front end complete assembly,…and some still do !
          I had a 68 ,1500 bug , bought in 74 for £150 , and loved it until some fool wrote it off .
          Currently looking for a similar one to restore .

          40

      • #
        Hanrahan

        Did you install a collapsible steering column? The solid shaft was 6″s behind the bumper to 6″s from your heart. No seat belts, so people died in minor accidents.

        The 1200 was grossly underpowered, even for the day, for highway driving.

        Hitler’s revenge.

        10

    • #
      Deano

      You’d probably love the scene in Woody Allen’s ‘Sleeper’ (1972) where he’s been frozen for 200 years and is awakened in the year 2172. In one scene he finds a Beetle abandoned in some bushes, unscrews the petrol caps and sniffs that there is still some fuel left after 200 years. Noticing the key is still in it, he dares himself to try it and as he gingerly turns the key it starts within a second and idles smoothly.
      When I saw this at a drive-in in about 1973 several Beetles tooted their horns in appreciation!

      20

  • #
    Pauly

    Now that’s just funny.

    I was reading an article on extending the life of EV batteries. Seems like a typical Tesla can achieve 400 recharge cycles, at an average range of about 300 km per charge. That’s right! 120,000km, then it’s time to swap out the old batteries.

    The article was suggesting that you could extend the life of the battery by not discharging it below 50%. They estimated that the battery would be good for 1200 to 1500 recharges. Taking their most optimistic view, 1500 charges at a 50% range of 150kms would extend the life of your vehicle to 225,000km!

    So now, if you are an EV owner, and you want a car that lasts a bit more than 6 years, you shouldn’t charge it above 80%, and you shouldn’t let the battery get below 50%. That leaves you with a “working” battery range of 30%, or 90km per charge.

    I don’t expect any owner of an EV would accept this limitation. But it does suggest that we will be seeing a lot of “used” EVs on the market after the six year mark.

    381

    • #
      Wet Mountains

      There are basically two philosophies to manufacturing. Sell the product at a lower cost and make your profit on spare parts or make your profit on the front end and sell spare parts as a supplement. The real cost of EV will be determined when it is time to fix them.

      210

      • #
        Ian1946

        As I understand it, you cannot just replace a part on a Tesla as all parts have a serial number and the car will reject the new part. Only Tesla will be able to work on your car and I imagine parts and labour will be very expensive.

        Not sure about other brands.

        210

        • #
          Mike Jonas

          Expect devices on the market that will disable all Tesla’s anti-competition features. And bumper stickers like “This car used to be a Tesla”.

          110

        • #
          Dave in the States

          On even conventional vehicles built in the last 20 years you sometimes need to give a vin number to get the right part. Sometimes they are otherwise identical parts but they only fit on certain sets of production runs.

          I had a work truck break down and it needed a new rear differential. After the new diff was installed the computer would not recognize the new parts (sensors for speed and traction control) and refused to let the truck run. They had to fly a tech in from Denver to reprogram all the onboard computers (They paid). There were 16 of them. And that was twelve years ago.

          I much prefer a carburetor and a car with no computers. Back in the day you get home with an emergency kit of bailing wire, duct tape, a cresent wrench, and a screw driver. Not now.

          90

          • #
            Liberator

            VIN Number? So a Vehicle Identification Number number, like the ATM Machine and PIN number to name a few, sorry had to say it…

            20

          • #
            Hasbeen

            That is why my favorite car is 41 years old, a pleasure to drive, especially on a long trip, & my youngest is 19 years old & almost as nice to drive.

            I bought my 41 year old car for $2000 20 years ago, spent $12,000 restoring it, so total less than any of the horrible hatches current at the time, & had 76,000 trouble free kilometers. Not a single computer in the thing to give me a hard time.

            50

    • #
      PeterS

      In that case the cost of old EVs on the second hand market will be cheap as chips once the word gets out that they will need to have their batteries replaced. I know of one person who bought a second hand Tesla only to find out he had to spend some $20k to replace the batteries. He didn’t so he ended up getting rid of it and buying a normal car. Expensive lesson.

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    • #
      yarpos

      I think there would be a natural tendency to start looking to top up early anyway regardless of alleged efficiencies.

      There are plenty of claims of high mileage Teslas so 120k sounds a bit pessimistic. There is a guy in Germany with a model S at 900k klms and with one battery replacement. Bit like ICE cars I guess, it depends who owns them. My Hilux has 500k klms and is going fine (shouldnt have said that should I?)

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    • #
      Dennis

      Next EV excuse is that most people do not drive further than 20-30 Kms a day so range is really not important.

      How pathetic that sales pitch is.

      40

      • #
        Liberator

        They are saying that now, your read it quite regulatory when the range is quoted, 400 s etc, that “most people in Australia only drive 30km a day so an EV will be ideal”

        20

        • #
          Hanrahan

          With an hour or two in the middle of the day to charge you could do 30kms a day in a golf cart, I assume.

          10

  • #
    Ian1946

    Electric cars were abandoned over a hundred years ago due to range and recharge limitations and the superiority of ICE’s.

    An EV is ok for an inner city dweller who never ventures more than 10 k’s from the CBD. Here in Brisbane an EV with luggage and family on board would struggle to reach Noosa on a hot humid day with the A/C going flat out. The Bruce Highway often has long queues of traffic further depleting the battery.

    Imagine how long a trip to Longreach, Cairns or Mt Isa would take.

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    • #
      Lawrie

      No. I cannot imagine that. Apart from Bob Brown, Zalli Steggal and Tim Flannery who would be stupid enough to try? Just remembered-they all drive diesel SUVs.

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    • #
      Pauly

      While the “inner city dweller” might be the target audience for EVs, a few Lithium Ion battery firs might soon change that market. A number of cities have banned EVs from multi-storey or underground parking stations, because there is no way to stop an EV battery fire once it starts, and parking stations were never designed for emergency vehicle access anyway.

      Then there is the issue of charging stations for inner city residents. Who pays for the infrastructure? And are these charging stations going to be located? Plenty of examples of thermal runaway while charging, hence the recommendation not to charge your EVs inside your garage. Which begs the question, where will all these EVs be parked?

      20

  • #
    R.B.

    Li ion batteries are about A$ 2,500 per 100 km, and prices are plateauing. Fuel efficient cars can do 1000 km on the highway on one tank so you need to spend $25,000 just on the batteries for the same. Government subsidies can bring the price down but how long will that last?

    A normal car doing 10 L per 100 km and 15 000 per year (real world fuel use of modern cars) would spend about that much in 10 years in fuel (using $1.70 /L). Poorer people in a small car would probably use that much in 20 years, although a 300 km range would suffice.

    So basically, electricity would have to be free to not impose an extra cost. Not likely to be the case even if all powered by wind and solar.

    We are so far from replacing fossil fuels without a drastic reduction in consumption of energy.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Unless they work for the Government when they can get ‘free’ electricity. I know of one car which gets charged up overnight at home, then travels to work largely on electricity, and gets plugged in at the workplace (for the return trip). But to spoil the story I must admit that it is a hybrid because they are silly, unlike those “greens” who want hybrids banned.

      10

  • #
    RobB

    But I think in a two-car family having a single EV for daily commuting is a good option – providing the price is right. Fuel consumption of a large ICE’s vehicle can go pear shaped in stop-start driving, alot of it due to idling which is not an issue for an EV. Clearly for a long trip in country Australia an ICE will win hands down.

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    • #
      Klem

      EVs are a great idea for city dwellers. They just have to ignore all of those warnings about never parking in the basement of apartment buildings or in your garage or within 10 meters of another car.

      All that silly talk about spontaneous combustion, it’s just a myth.

      60

  • #

    Automated battery swapping is the obvious solution to EV’s greatest weakness, and has a tonne of advantages:
    -Smaller batteries satisfactory – 1-200km range OK for more than 95% of trips
    -Couple of minutes to refuel
    -Lower vehicle weight and cost
    -Batteries not limiting vehicle life, and future battery tech upgrades can be applied to existing vehicles
    -Requiring far less charging infrastructure
    -Gentler charging for longer battery life
    -Charging in off peak hours for less demand on Grid infrastructure
    -Cheaper charging at wholesale rates (and amortising less grid infrastructure means cheaper power)
    -Easy charging for houses with no off street parking
    -Ability to use it to take houses off-grid with PV cheaply (particularly once EVs are autonomous).

    Chinese companies like Nio are surging ahead with plans in that direction. Western EV companies can do it easily enough too, but probably less profitable, so they will be reluctant until market demands it.

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Well written.

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    • #
      Mike Jonas

      In-road induction would be a massively better option in cities.

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    • #
      Peter C

      About 15 years ago we had a Labor politician in Victoria, who had a science degree and was considered to be very smart by his Labor colleagues.
      He resigned his seat to take up a business opportunity with a company called “better world”. The business model of better world was to supply charged swap out batteries for electric cars at charging stations across the country.
      The idea did not fly at the time.
      The idea is possibly a good one but I can think of a number of reasons why it might be difficult to achieve.

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      • #
        Neville

        So Peter C can you tell us how we could achieve that nonsense and then tell us why?
        Is it all because very stupid people BELIEVE we’ll be off or have a nicer climate or be happier driving an expensive TOXIC tiny EV rather than an efficient, useful, comfortable ICE car?
        It totally escapes me or perhaps I’m wrong about the improvement we’ve measured over the last 100 years?
        But then again I’m observing the REAL planet Earth and not their silly fantasy planet?

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    • #

      Foyle

      Would you swap your well looked after low use battery for one that might have been badly misused and done too many cycles?

      . Also even batteries of this smaller size are of an incredible weight. How would the automatic swapping work?

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      • #

        irrelevant. You buy into a loan service, you don’t own a battery. Think of swap and go gas bottles.

        The swapping would require hydraulics and robotic units to remove, relocate, locate a new one and insert. Industrial hydraulics. It is not that hard- what is hard is getting all the car manufacturers to agree to a standard.

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        • #
          Disco Stu

          And there is your main issue. Getting competitors to agree to a standard design. Batteries are the key to electric cars, improved batteries means improved range/performance. Rather important aspects to a car. So why would car companies agree to socialise the technology?

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          • #

            I totally agree. It is a big hurdle.

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          • #

            There is at least one well funded US company trying to do a retrofit for existing EVS (Ample). But it would be great if SAE or some other automotive standards organisation got ahead of the ball on this and created a modular swappable battery standard (eg use 1-4 battery packs depending on car size and trip length), likely something prismatic and thin that can fit into a car floor. As battery tech develops the batteries will get smaller and lighter (or higher capacity in the same size).

            BAttery packs should be rented on a per charge + perhaps per day basis. Should be about $0.1/kWh + electricity cost (but if standardised could be competing price structures for different providers)

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        • #
          paul courtney

          Mr. b: Your concerns are breezily waved off by Mr. Aye. Didn’t you know that your $20,000 battery is no more concern than a $2 gas bottle? He is quite generous with your battery. And you forgot the bonus of people getting green jobs operating, um, robotic lifts.
          Always keep it light, MR. Leaf.

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          • #
            Harves

            I think he also forgot all the extra mining required by fossil fuel powered machinery and all the extra emissions to make these robots. In ‘lefty land’ there’s infinite free resources available to support their idealism. Any resources or emissions are never counted in the cost or energy budget of the finished virtuous product.

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        • #
          stewartpid

          Folks the battery swap idea was tried by Tesla and abandoned and an Israeli company also tried to make it work https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-place
          The Better Place story is a good read.

          10

      • #

        In Europe there is/was (?) a Renault EV available which you could buy…but the Battery cost was eliminated by a “battery lease” arrangement using swap out packs on a monthly lease payment.
        I dont know if it is still operating ..(.i hope so for the owners sake !)…but there have been many “battery swap” EV systems iniated, ….even Tesla invested heavily in a system for a while before developing the “Supercharger” ….. many of them having failed already

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    • #
      Bright Red

      Foyle
      Perhaps you should list the negatives as well and how you intend to solve them. Here’s some to get you started.
      1) requirement to have additional expensive batteries as you need one in the car and one or more on charge for each car ready when it needs it at the location it needs it. $$
      2) shear weight and size of batteries requires very specialised handling and storage automation. Can not have someone stick a forklift prong into one can we.
      3) charging location is a bonfire just waiting to go off. Imagine the fire when a 100’s or even 1000’s of more fully charged batteries burn.
      4) requires a very limited number of battery physical designs and capacities which all car designers would be required to comply with limiting their ability to innovate and improve. These restrictions on battery packaging would mean batteries for the most part will be lower capacity as they would be unable to use all available space in a vehicle.
      5) due to cost there would be a very limited number of swap stations probably so far out of your way that you use half a charge just to visit it,

      Bottom line is battery swapping is a dead end as it is totally impractical and no amount of wishful green thinking can change that.

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      • #

        1) you just need space. Petrol stations have tanks.
        2) So? You don’t me to point out easy this is to achieve.
        3) Implement regulations that prevent this.
        4) The biggest problem. It requires international collaboration etc.
        5) “Due tot he cost”… you are making things up.

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        • #
          Bright Red

          Gee the uninformed has shown up with no actual argument other than the green mantra of cost and complexity are no object to green utopia.

          Come back when you have designed and costed a viable swap station that is fully compliant with all health and safety requirements. Include the cost of stock (batteries) you need to carry. Also present the manufactures/countries agreements on the standards for physical size, electrical connections, voltages, thermal management system and coolant line connections. Remember that these people can not even standardise on a single plug or charging station for all EV.

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          • #

            You didn’t argue anything yourself. You just made rhetorical statements that you think sound like problems.

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            • #
              clarence.t

              Every point ga has failed to make is laughable.

              1) Vast areas (the petrol station on the F3 near Gosford handles some 200+ cars per hour in normal operation) don’t know what the peak holiday loading would be. The cost of providing the electricity and facilities for that many EVs in that time would b e astronomical.

              2) Specialised handling is not easy to achieve.. it is costly and requires much equipment that could only be used in a concentrated area.

              3) legislate against lithium fires.. how very useless !!

              4) very funny, with each company wanting to do things their own way… aim for the LCD to get consistency 😉

              5) Not understanding the complexity and cost of creating a huge battery exchange network, doesn’t mean you get to make stupid comments.

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      • #
        MarkMcD

        We need to think outside the box – don’t swap out batteries, swap out the CARS! Drive in, transfer luggage and drive away. You don’t own the car, you subscribe to a plan – more expensive plans get better cars.

        Submit Drive Plans (like Flight Plans) for when and where you want to go to ensure your replacement is waiting and charged when you arrive.

        Commissars at each location and in towns/cities to ensure you are approved to travel and to where.

        Implanted chips so you can be scanned in and out of locations – reduces the human factor you see 😀 – and to ensure you make no deviations from your Drive Plan.

        Set up vaccine stations at every location – by this time we’ll be down to daily boosters so it’s a good way to ensure everyone is compliant.

        Sterilise everyone who agrees to any of the above! Too stupid to be allowed to breed. 😀

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      • #

        Capital is cheap. An extra $5000 dollar battery costs around 0.50/day to have sitting around unused if it is not deteriorating. and TCO for a car is probably 20-30x that. You would only need perhaps 10-20% surplus batteries in circulation.

        The rest of your list aren’t real problems. Battery chemistries can be made in whatever format people prefer, cylindrical or prismatic – eg 18650 cormat was standard for decades while chemistries evolved. Swap stations can be smaller than petrol stations, and batteries can be relocated in larger numbers by trucks if needed. In 10 years automated autonomous swap services could even come out and change batteries automatically wherever your car happens to be parked (or your car could drive itself to local swap station). Battery package volume is not a problem, and will get smaller as we progress to solid state.

        03

        • #
          Hanrahan

          Surely you jest! [Maybe you are, it’s often hard to tell] but the average dickhead home owner cannot be trusted to fit a three pin plug [a qualified radio tech nearly killed me once]. YOU are going to ask them to change a battery pack that is so dangerous I would not change it without suitable instruction.

          20

      • #

        Couple more advantages:

        Battery swapping means batteries that are end of life for automotive are easy to repurpose to stationary applications (eg home PV energy storage) or send to easy recycling without having to pull a whole car apart.

        Battery swap also means you can charge a car battery from home PV during the day while you use another to drive to work.

        05

        • #
          RobB

          The weight of the batteries in an average Tesla is about half a tonne. Try swaping that out every evening in the average home garage.

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        • #

          I notice bright red and that noisy chap have still not made an argument and have run away from Foyle. No one said it would be easy but one thing that is easy, is coming up with pithy lists.

          05

          • #
            Bright Red

            Gee. When you make an actual informed intelligent argument to support your position I will respond.
            Problem with you (insert cause) types is that you make problems with stupid ideas that you expect others to fix for you. BTW I have a new wave generator design that fixes all the problems of the previous ones that have been abandoned even by the likes of you./sarc Battery swapping is in the same category. It has been looked at by lots of smart people and determined to be impractical. Do your own research.

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          • #
            Hanrahan

            Forget “easy”. Explain how it is “possible”.

            I have worked around high voltage, on and off, all my life. I would not contemplate doing a HV battery change on an EV before going to work in the morning. I’m not always at my best then. Can you change the battery in your iPhone in seconds?

            50

          • #
            Harves

            “No one said it would be easy”

            No one said a fusion car would be easy. Let’s subsidise the building of a few hundred thousand and see how it goes. It’s the virtuous way.

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        • #
          Bright Red

          Foyle. It seems you do not understand the meaning of “end of life”. Ever heard of the J or bathtub curve. End of life also means the probability of failures is increasing significantly including in the case of batteries the risk of fire.
          Also the charge and discharge efficiency has dropped to the point that too much energy is being lost in the process that the battery is no longer economical to use even in a repurposed household application. Batteries simply do not last forever or for all that long in reality.

          10

    • #
      yarpos

      Sounds a bit rainbows and unicorns really.

      The battery is a very heavy structural element of the car. You make it “easily” removable you need to add structure. So heavy cars will get even heavier.

      The replacement stations would be something to behold and Chinese scale with vast warehouses of batteries stored and charging and being pulled in and out. It sounds like that scene in the Matrix where source of the power is revealed and Neo escapes. And of course you would need lots of them to avoid massive queuing. So while the world says battery resources are stretched (or just not possible) we greatly increase the number of batteries as we know have one in every car and a fleet on charge and/or waiting on install.

      Hard to get excited by Chinese claims, I’d rather watch what they actually do.

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      • #

        As mentioned above…
        Battery swap EVs and swap stations already exist with new systems appearing frequently.
        As with everything, the technology improves constantly, with a battery “lease” model seemingly becoming popular to take the capital cost and risk away from the vehicle owner …..at a cost !
        I doubt it will be the future for EVs as battery life and performance improves and costs reduce.

        04

      • #

        Batteries are not structural, their pack casings can be, (but that would be true of a swappable battery too). Even for Teslas claimed ‘structural battery’ it can be replaced by at most a few 10’s of kg of cheap steel, which is basically nothing in a 2000+kg EV.

        Swappable batteries also mean you can use a cheaper less dense LiPo battery round town and swap to a higher density more expensive chemistry, or even a range extending IC engine in identical forma factor for long trips.

        01

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          I heard of a bloke who put a small LiPo in his pocket before he got into his car.
          He forgot about the house keys, short story, he became gender neutral.

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        • #

          *most accepted and used definitions of batteries is that they are structural. A collection of electrochemical cells in a physical enclosure is the battery.

          02

      • #
        Hanrahan

        The world is short of chips. Let’s not think about batteries.

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  • #
    ExWarmist

    Imagine doing the trip with a crying baby in the back, or a pair of 9 year olds in the grip of sibling rivalry…

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      No….

      But in 2030 according to the WEF-heads, you “will own nothing and be happy”…yeah because they have stripped it from you “for your own good”.

      Co-oercion and thievery…hmmm

      Gotta love the globalist “electric dream”

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      • #
        clarence.t

        “because they have stripped it from you “for your own good”. ” …

        … and kept it all for themselves.

        How much of “their” stuff do you think they would be willing to share with the plebs !

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  • #
    William Astley

    The EV scheme does not ‘work’ for fundamental reasons. It takes 45 minutes to charge an EV vehicle and the charger stations, only have four outlets. Charging an EV vehicle in 45 minutes requires a great deal of electrical power. It is not possible to store electrical power so the energy to fast charge millions of EV vehicles must be made as the instant millions of EV vehicles are charged.

    A failure of the electrical grid… In a world of EV vehicles… Strands an entire population. People use their gasoline and diesel powered vehicles to evacuate, to get food, to get water, to pick up their children, to take their children to the hospital, and so on. Electrical grid outages of a week or more, are not uncommon, in many US states. … because of ice storms and wind storms.

    As long as there are only a few EV vehicles on the road the four outlets/45 minutes to charge problem and ignoring the power requirements to charge four EV vehicles simultaneously is OK.

    Now imagine California say in 2030, all residents must/forced to have EV vehicles, ignoring engineering implications.

    The California electrical grid must supply twice as much electric power. Complete grid upgrade required and twice as many natural gas power plants required. No other possible choices. Zero ‘chance’ this necessary ‘investment’ will be done.

    The EV charging stations would be surrounded by abandon EV vehicles, if there was a ‘brownout’ for half a day. There would be fights for access to the EV charging stations. An EV vehicle with a dead battery is a paper weight.

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Stop being so realistic.
      🙂

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      • #
        Hasbeen

        Stop being silly.

        Electric cars are not really supposed to work, they are merely a stepping stone to eliminating personal transport from the majority.

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    • #
      yarpos

      I want see the first full on EV charging stations and 100% penetrations. I think something like old drive in theatres with a large field of charging points , with a central diner, theme park , toilets etc. Maybe shade sails to stop the cars baking to the California sun. Of course you will many of these beside highways for those daring to do more than the mythical 44km daily commute (and be able to pluck the power from somewhere)

      40

    • #
      Binny Pegler

      The idea won’t work for a much more basic reason – Power/Energy generation. The energy requirements for an EV is on pare with a standard house. They are basically telling everyone to double their energy ‘take’ from the existing grid. Without any plan to increase generation or upgrade the capacity of the grid. You could be forgiven for think EVs run on Pixy dust and happy thoughts. No one EVER talks about where this extra energy is going to come from.

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      • #

        Binny Pegler
        January 25, 2022 at 8:46 am · …
        … They are basically telling everyone to double their energy ‘take’ from the existing grid. Without any plan to increase generation or upgrade the capacity of the grid. You could be forgiven for think EVs run on Pixy dust and happy thoughts. No one EVER talks about where this extra energy is going to come from.

        Wrong,..on many points.
        I have repeatedly laid out the facts on this issue , here, several times. Though obviously few bother to read or check the facts.
        Australia already has installed sufficient generation capacity to provide power for recharging at least half the 14 million or so passenger vehicles on the roads.
        That is based on the average distance driven per vehicle ( 35km/day) and a average energy used of 200 W/km ..thats 7kWh per day per vehicle
        For 7 mil cars that means an extra 49 gWh per day needed…only a few % of the current daily consumption od 550-600 gWh and easily within the 800+ total current generation capacity.
        ……However , although generation capacity is not a problem, local distribution capacity and infrastructure in many areas may well pose a problem.

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        • #
          Bright Red

          Now when you factor in more than one car per household I might take your assertions more seriously.

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          • #

            B R….
            That 14 mil or so “passenger vehicles” already includes those households with more than one car, UTE, SUV, etc..
            ..or do you think that EVs are suddenly going to be an extra addition to every household !?

            00

        • #
          Binny Pegler

          Actual generation capacity, or name plate generation capacity? Very very big difference.

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          • #

            Binny Pegler
            January 25, 2022 at 6:22 pm · Reply
            Actual generation capacity, or name plate generation capacity? Very very big difference

            Actual…. the grid generation currently copes with demands of 30+ gWh (700+ gWh/day potential)
            Acording to AEMO there is currently 34.5 GW of FOSSIL fueled generation capacity alone , ………..ignoring Hydro, Wind, Utility Solar and Roof top Solar !
            So an extra 49 GWh per day should not be a concern !
            I also ignored how many of those enthusiastic Green EV buyers plan to recharge from their own RT solar .!
            AND…. remember this is NOW without any future planned additions ..
            AND …. how long will it be before we get to 50% EV penitration actually on the roads ?
            …..i am willing to be that wont happen for another 20+ years !
            .. plenty of time to build a few modular Nuke generators !

            00

        • #
          Philip

          And then trucks ? And then the other half of vehicles ? It is interesting though I have heard another bright fellow claim production of power is not a problem so it makes me wonder.

          20

    • #
      roman

      “Now imagine California say in 2030…”. Oh God please don’t make me do that.

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  • #
    Maptram

    “But the weather was freezing and to get further on each charge Lisa Brack kept the heating off most of the time.”

    “Brack had to take along a generous supply of “hats, scarves, gloves and generally warm clothing”

    So how would an EV driver extract more range in hot weather, turn off the air conditioner and wear as little clothing as possible.

    Then there is the speed. The way I understand it, in an EV, greater speed requires more electricity, so drive slower and get greater range, but driving slower increases the travel time for the journey. So driving an EV is a trade off between speed and time.

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    So you buy a second hand ev (that particular ev is out of production in Germany), one which has a range of around 200km in winter, and then spend hours waiting to charge to 100%.

    It was always going to need 3 recharges, to go that distance. This like buying a mini move to drive Sydney to Perth, and complaining about how long and uncomfortable the trip was.

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    • #
      Peter Fitzroy

      Mini moke

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      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Generally, EVs arent going to work in practical terms…unless the bigger unspoken plan is to remove mobility from most people…and that would fit within the leftist mind set though….

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      • #
        Peter C

        Green thumb for reminding me of the legendary Mini Moke.

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      • #
        David Maddison

        For those not familiar with the Mini Moke it is an obsolete vehicle out of production since 1968 in the UK, 1981 in Australia and 1983 in Portugal and which now has cult and collector status. It was the definition of an absolutely minimal vehicle but fun to drive and with some useful utility such as for newspaper deliveries in the time of paper newspapers.

        See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_Moke?wprov=sfla1

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        • #
          Hanrahan

          There was a Moke hire company on Magnetic Is. Their clients killed themselves often enough on the narrow winding roads.

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    • #
      Strop

      So what EV vehicle would have done the trip without needing to stop for a charge, with full interior comfort, and how much does it cost to buy?

      Regarding a mini moke. A mini moke could have done the Germany trip with two short fuel stops, with more interior comfort than the e-Up despite the canvas/plastic walls, and in much shorter time. So the crappest IC car is still much better than the EV in question.

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    • #
      yarpos

      So what if its out of production? All our cars 1984 to 2018 are out of production and I would (and have) happily drive any of the them on 2000km + road trips. What nonsense logic.

      Any car shouldnt make a battle out of a 650km transit

      50

      • #
        Hanrahan

        You are far more forgiving than I. When I hear “They don’t make cars like they used to” I think to myself: Thank God!

        20

  • #
    Neville

    EVs are a TOXIC disaster and obviously will NEVER change the climate, but how many people really understand any of the data?
    The origins of the rare earth minerals etc are incredibly toxic and small kids are part of the labour force in the Congo etc and loss of life is a common threat in these mine disasters.
    BTW just have a careful look at the clueless VW in Jo’s story and ask whether you would pay twice the money for these TINY disasters?
    If you would you are a stupid fool and couldn’t care less about the environment or the deaths of kids who have to work for very little in very dangerous conditions.
    But if you disagree please tell us the benefits of these clueless EVs and how we’ll all be better off in the future?

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    • #

      Neville

      I have made these points numerous times but the green zealots just shrug their shoulders. After all what is toxic damage and child labour compared to saving the planet?

      160

  • #
    Neville

    Here’s Mark Mills 5 minute video explaining the clueless, unreliable S & W disasters that we’re told will supply our future energy needs. Or charging the TOXIC EVs like that stupid, tiny VW e-UP.
    But please tell us how we can enjoy a better climate than we have today? And don’t forget to provide DATA and EVIDENCE over the last century or since 1950 or since 1970 or since 1990 or since…..

    https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar

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    • #
      TdeF

      The whole scam is based on a false premise that highly soluble Carbon Dioxide accumulates in the atmosphere unlike all other gases. So the gas from which all life is made and on which all life is utterly dependent has been officially declared pollution. Unbelievable.

      Electric cars? CO2 levels are going up steadily and if you buy a fully electric car you will save the planet?

      Not a single thing is true. And you are paying 3x more for the ultra heavy electric car and the more cars, the more expensive the electricity with carbon taxes (like Australia’s massive RET scheme) so the reason electricity prices are rocketing is the unsuitable uses for electricity like fully electric cars and having to pay people for free electricity as in home solar, also 50% subsidized by carbon taxes. And electric car owners want everyone else to pay for their cars, their charging stations, their misery. It’s a climate money go round. And we need to get off.

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    • #
      PeterS

      Great video. Imagine that being shown to all the school students. Teachers better run away in case they get attacked by their students.

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  • #
    TdeF

    Now do the same trip at 30-37C and high humidity with no airconditioning. Same story but just as uncomfortable. And with a continental climate it can be 37 during the day and as hot or hotter at night as in Colorado.

    With engines so small and efficient, why not get a hybrid? Less CO2 as well because there is less energy waste in transmission and even less because the heat from the engine provides the heat in the car.

    Hybrids are the future. In the city they are very efficient and in the country they have the combination of range and power at highway speeds. Electric cars have always been toys. For children.

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    • #
      TdeF

      And sales of Porsche’s all electric Taycan have just passed those of the conventional 911. Partly because it’s half the price. And it’s entirely market for a men who want toys. The male men-a-porsche. As long as you can fit golf clubs. Otherwise practicality is their last concern. And the Greens want such things subsidized by everyone else.

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      • #
        David Maddison

        I wonder if Porsche internally subsidise their EV to prove their wokeness? Without the subsidy few would buy it except to a) virtue signal and b) add to their toy collection.

        As toys, a fully charged EV on a warm day can have stunning performance (until the batteries run flat). I wouldn’t question that fact.

        But those of the Green Left who promote and want to force us to drive EV’s would be opposed to any male cis-gendered macho displays of speed and power in any case. So performance isn’t a concern.

        20

        • #
          TdeF

          I wonder. There is much more to performance than just horsepower and I suspect the go karts are fast, but that the real drivers would not touch them. The real advantage of electric motors is that they have maximum torque at zero rpm. That’s where the advantage ends. And the real cost of carrying 600kg of batteries is huge. That’s almost the weight of an F1 car! Charged or dead flat.

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          • #
            yarpos

            A real driver currently holds the outright lap record for the Pikes Peak hillclimb. A record unlikely to be broken anytime soon except by another EV as their performance is unaffected by the 9000ft to 14000ft climb.

            Its horses for courses really. In motorsport terms EVs only fit in a few notches mainly limited by lack of endurance when used for performance. Hill climb seems to be a sweetspot.

            10

          • #
            KP

            Yea, massive acceleration off the line, but then it tails off the faster they go. A Corvette will go past a Tesla over 130kph.

            https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/81114-so-who-is-going-to-do-the-first-ke-rolla-ev-conversion/#comments

            They are decades away from anything to replace the versatility of the ICE, from range, performance, weight, sustainability and refueling.

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            • #
              Hanrahan

              A stock Tesla S goes into “limp home” mode because of battery overheating before it can complete the Nurburgring.

              40

          • #
            Hanrahan

            “Real” drivers LUV go carts. They practice in them off season. That’s where they started after all.

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        • #
          Philip

          No. Suddenly greenies love the idea of being a rev head. Its hilarious. Gone is the dream of a van so you can sleep in it.

          20

        • #
          Hanrahan

          As toys, a fully charged EV on a warm day can have stunning performance (until the batteries run flat). I wouldn’t question that fact.

          A fun day indeed but think of the tyres @ $250 a corner.

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          • #

            Hanrahan
            January 25, 2022 at 9:29 pm ·

            A fun day indeed but think of the tyres @ $250 a corner.

            You may want to recheck that, but i believe the tyres for the boy racer Tesla S+, are closer to $1k per corner !

            10

    • #
      Dave in the States

      Except your more likely to die from the cold than from the heat.

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    • #
      yarpos

      mmmmmm sounds like the 1950s and 60s

      20

    • #
      Hanrahan

      Hybrids are the way to go. Mine is 11 yrs old and I have just replaced the 12 V battery. No other non-service expense.

      The 4 cyl Atkinson cycle engine [detuned for economy] is helped by the hybrid motor so gives plenty of grunt to overtake road trains. By far the best car I’ve ever owned. The HV battery spends its time in the ideal charge range.

      00

      • #
        yarpos

        I think they are the best of a bad bunch if we are forced down that path. They are complex machines and when hit with repairs the bill will be big. Great you have had a good experience so far, but one anecdote (good or bad) doesnt make a market.

        00

  • #
    Ursus Augustus

    EV’s are a joke IMO. A politically correct solution to a media massaged problem.

    That said I have no basic issue with the use of battery power, we had a Prius hybrid for many years which gave excellent mileage. The latest plug in hybrids (PHEV) seem the way to go – smaller battersies for say 50 to 100 km battery only travel plus an IC engine for the long hauls with various potential options for the IC plant.

    According to a detailed survey the average distance travelled by light vehicles in Australia (i.e. cars, SUVS, utes and small vans etc) is only about 30 km per day so the overwhelming majority of use is more than feasible with a small battery. Small ‘town’ cars could readily be PHEV with 50 km range or even be 100% EV with 100 km range but with the same plug in system. Larger vehicles and commercial utes etc could have say 100 km range and be PHEV and act as an on site battery pack for tradies etcwith the IC as backup.

    Having the ‘plug in’ charging option, i.e. to the house/office 240 VAC system coupled with solar takeup gives a vector for reduced fuel consumption, increased incentive to install solar, and ticks all the substantive eco boxes.

    As for 100% EV’s, they weight 500 to 1000 kG more than an IC equivalent and have acceleration performance normally found in a sports car. SUV’s being so popular EV SUV’s soon become hoonvees and our roads even more dangerous. To what end? So sad little ego trippers with self worth issues can drive like nutjobs.

    And then there is TESLA with its “assertive” automatic mode to add fuel to the EV pyre.

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  • #
    David Maddison

    I don’t care if Green Leftists freeze in the dark. That’s their choice.

    But they have no moral right to make all of the rest of us do so.

    I love my gasoline powered six litre V8. Even more so that Green Leftists hate it.

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    • #
      Dave in the States

      But David, that is the whole heart of the matter: making others do as they think best…except themselves.

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  • #
    David Maddison

    An electrician in Once Great Britain decided to get an electric van as his work vehicle and concludes it was a huge mistake. It started with not being able to defrost the windscreen, something easily done on a vehicle that uses the stored solar energy of gasoline.

    See video: https://youtu.be/yQQCEQ3gOQM

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    • #
      Graeme#4

      A 64 mile range that reduces by 30% when the heater is turned on? That’s absolutely useless as a work vehicle!

      40

  • #
    Neville

    Our donkeys are still wedded to their fantasy planet and idiocy like EVs etc powered by S&W that are a TOXIC disaster and at some stage must always fail for hours or days or longer intervals.
    But why do they believe so hard in their delusional fairy tales of EXISTENTIAL threats or climate crisis etc?
    I’ve proved that so far we’ve had an unbelievable increase in health and wealth due to the use of FOSSIL FUELS but these donkeys still believe in their fantasies. Don’t forget FFs STILL supply 80% + of global energy generation in 2022.
    So lets start at Hansen’s claims in 1988 and the dire forecasts that have been made since that time. In 1988 co2 levels were about 350 ppm and pop was 5.3 bn and life exp 65 years. Today co2 levels are about 415 ppm, pop about 7.8 bn and life exp has increased to about 73 years or an increase of 8 years since 1990.
    And Ehrlich and Holdren’s etc Earth day 1970 forecast couldn’t have been more wrong and in fact were as far from reality as you could get. Why are L W donkeys always so clueless?
    And urban living around the world has increased from 52% in 1988 and is now 63% in 2022. Wealthy countries are over 80% urban living and increasing every decade.
    Why would any sane person or group want to change this modern + 200 year miracle? And no need to believe in any of their silly L W religious garbage and fantasies.

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    • #
      roman

      You answer your own question. The globalists don’t want this to continue _becuase_ there are 7.8 billion people. A bit of immune deficiency due to covid shots, reduced available energy – and at added cost – due to green legislation, plus one war over Ukraine to kill a bunch of pepole directly while completely destroying global trade, and they’ll be well on their way to their preferred population 500 million.

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  • #
    Ronin

    The great thing about the heater on an ICE vehicle is that it is completely FREE, and doesn’t detract from its range as it uses waste heat.

    70

    • #

      Free ??
      Where do you think the energy comes from to produce that heat ?…
      …… petrol !…..which you have to buy.
      So you are paying for the heat, even if you are not using it
      It is worse with ACon as that just causes the ICE to burn more fuel !

      04

  • #
    Neville

    So why would we want to waste trillions $ on idiocies like TOXIC EVs powered by the S & W lunacies?
    Here’s another 20 year update study that proves that we should fear COLD deaths more than HEAT deaths.
    Cold deaths are the really big killer all around the world and the 2015 Lancet study also showed that moderate cold deaths killed more people than all heat and SEVERE cold deaths combined.

    https://www.monash.edu/medicine/news/latest/2021-articles/worlds-largest-study-of-global-climate-related-mortality-links-5-million-deaths-a-year-to-abnormal-temperatures

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  • #
    Dennis

    Best description, if EV becomes affordable and competitive with equivalent ICE they would be suitable as a town only car or other vehicle configuration, based on zero exhaust pollution mainly.

    Recharging time and inconvenience then not a major problem as it is for country roads driving.

    10

    • #
      yarpos

      In a few of the retirement towns in VIC its pretty common to see people driving to the local golf courses in electric golf buggies. Leading edge those folks.

      There were rumblings about wrapping it all up in nanny state rules, dont know if that happened.

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  • #
    KP

    Anyone read The Invisible Rainbow, by Arthur Firstenberg? He details the damage done to us by EMF fields over the last 150years, the new diseases and old ones that have become ‘the norm.’

    Sitting between two 200KW electric motors in a car full of electronic controllers is not going to do people a lot of good!

    21

    • #
      roman

      That’s nothing. One guy’s adverse reaction to receiving a covid jab was that he developed Bluetooth connectivity. Here’s an article that has the video.

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  • #
    Dennis

    On talkback radio a week ago a caller told the radio guy about his remote area EV driving trips, across Australia and around the coastline, and acknowledged that finding even a slow 240 volt charging point was a challenge. He also acknowledged that fuel stop roadhouses had diesel generators for electricity supply and the generators were flat out providing what was needed for running the business.

    So this smart person has “invented” a “bio fuel” generator to take with him, it runs on fuel he produces from used vegetable oil and said roadhouse cafes usually have supplies he can access. Imagine that, he invented a bio fuel generator. As the conversation continued he admitted that the generator was obtained from a well known hardware shop.

    And of course his bio fuel is bio-diesel that has been available from some service stations since at least the early 2000s and is also produced by many people and groups of people who often buy vegetable oil in bulk and share, used oil must be filtered and the end fuel product is not quite as good.

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    • #
      Graeme#4

      Recently a frying-oil powered diesel gen-alternator EV charging unit was installed at Caiguna on the Eyre Highway. The company producing these units hopes to install them at each stop. I presume that they will also run on diesel.

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  • #
    Dennis

    Does anybody know about the recent racing meeting at which many parked cars were burnt out after one caught fire, I am not sure of the location, somewhere in Australia, I did not view all of that television news item?

    Strange that as far as I am aware there has been no further news.

    I wonder if the fire started from exothermic reaction in an EV?

    11

    • #
      KP

      Last century a couple were burnt out at a drag meeting in NZ. The catalytic converter on one set fire to the grass under it and the fire spread. Probably more likely than an EV at the moment.

      10

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Great Western race meeting in Victoria. Around 18 cars have been reported as burnt in the fire.
      No mention of an EV.

      10

  • #

    EVs do have one essential redeeming feature….
    They reduce the use of oil based fuels ( prebably at the expense of coal and gas as a worst case) , which means there will be more oil reserves for a longer period.
    The key being that oil is pratically essential to our life style and health as it is used is so many derived products ..chemicals, pharmacuticals, plastics, etc etc.
    Extending the availability of oil reserves is a vital factor for the future, and much more important than which energy source is used for transport.
    EVs certainly cannot replace all transport/ vehicle applications, but in and around city and urban areas they can make sense…..if the costs can be reduced sufficiently.

    04

    • #
      TdeF

      Hybrids do that better with regenerative braking but far lower energy losses in consumption of coal, oil and gas in generating and transmitting electricity.

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      • #

        Err ?.. ..how do they do it better ?
        How can it use less oil based energy than a BEV
        …a hybrid is just an EV with the added weight of an ICE engine, gearbox etc.
        The EV has the same regen braking feature
        Lower energy losses ?….. think of the overall energy use,..
        The hybrids only source of energy is from its ICE fuel ( the regen energy is just a recouperation of the fuel used to get up speed in the first place.
        The efficiency of the ICE is orders of magnitude less than the electrical efficiency of a BEV
        Coal resources are huge, and there are alternatives for power( electricity) generation ,..such as Nuclear.
        But Oil is much more likely to run out and it is much more essential to our society as mentioned.
        But i agree, for us in Oz, a hybrid , or PHEV is a more realistic solution for anyone needing to travel intercity or in the country.
        The best solution i have seen is a Toyota “dual fuel” PHEV ..a petrol, LPG, electric , hybrid ..
        Just a pity they have not used diesel instead of petrol !

        06

      • #

        ..and i should have asked if there were any energy “ losses” , or wasteage, in the production, distribution and storage of petrol ?
        And of course you are ignoring those green EV owners who also have RT solar to recharge from

        06

        • #
          KP

          That’s an interesting point Chad- Do we spend more on delivering petrol to gas stations than we will in line losses for the megawatts needed to charge electric cars?

          One for Tony to think about..

          10

          • #

            Yep, I had a think about it, and it made my head hurt.

            “Matter of fact, it’s all dark!”

            Tony.

            30

          • #
            Hanrahan

            The actual delivery of oil from Saudi Arabia to consumer suffers little efficiency losses, I vaguely recall 20% used in transport. The final leg from depot to city servo? Three fifths of five eights of bugger-all.

            00

  • #
    Dennis

    I think the time was 2018 and I was entering the Hume Highway near Goulburn NSW driving my diesel 4WD SUV and as I entered from the side entry road and proceeded at a real (speedometer adjusted) 110 KMH on cruise control a Tesla Model S was driven close to my vehicle and obviously taking advantage of the slipstream. It followed for several minutes until we reached a construction zone and slowed to 40 KMH, through the 80 KMH before that the Tesla was separated from my vehicle by several vehicles that ignored the speed zone limits.

    Through the zone and back to legal highway speed of 110 KMH and soon the Tesla caught up and quickly, lots of battery energy being discharged. Next a few hills and then a steeper hill with a B-Double truck slow in the left lane. The Tesla driver pulled out to overtake my vehicle and then slowed and drove alongside until we were over the hill, and then it sped away and pulled in front of the truck. I caught up at 100 KMH on cruise control and passed them both, the Tesla then tailgated my vehicle again and stayed there for quite a while before slowing and soon dropping behind by an increasing gap as I continued at legal speed.

    Obviously the Tesla driver had been warned by the computer to slow down to conserve energy to reach the next recharging point. I later read that 80 KMH is the recommended highway speed for EV and slower as battery charge drops.

    Meanwhile my diesel ICEV can comfortably cover 850 Kms at highway speeds (2017 model) and the latest model has a larger fuel tank and can exceed 1,000 Kms.

    50

    • #
      Forrest Gardener

      Self-driving cars should be a real hoot when somebody decides to prank one. My response to tailgaters is to gradually reduce speed until they decide to find somebody else to annoy.

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    • #
      Analitik

      Let’s emphasize that the Tesla was resorting to drafting your SUV in order to be able to make it to the next charging station without crawling along the highway at 80km/h and to do so, had to drive in an irresponsible manner (tailgating and speeding) to maximise the slipstream and to get into it if delayed.

      30

  • #

    Usual Leftist mantra in play here.

    Technical issues are thrown aside as “inconvenient” and political correctness takes over.

    The reality is that electric cars are only a niche application

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    • #

      The history of new structural innovations – electric power, powered road transport, sewerage systems, phone networks, rail networks – took a long view and investment to implement. Technical issues were met and solved without a leftist or a rightist needing to be involved.

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      • #
        clarence.t

        Electricity took over from oil lamps because it was better

        Internal combustion transport took over from horse and cart because it was better

        Sewerage took over from street sewers.. because they were far better

        Railway took over from horse and cart,.. because it had far more capacity and was far faster

        There is absolutely nothing to warrant EVs taking over from ICE cars.

        The only way it will happen is by leftist political impost.

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      • #
        Hanrahan

        No! “Rightists” solved the problems by investing funds pooled from themselves and other rightists. If the idea was sound, with a little luck progress was achieved.

        Have you ever invested your own money in a project of your own? I have, many times.

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      • #

        Gee Aye
        Past innovations were not forced on people. They came about because they were better and cheaper.

        Here we have an ongoing attempt to force EVs, renewable power, hydrogen and in covid, “vaccines” on the populace – “for their own good”.

        As an engineer who has developed products which sell in the millions of units every year in supermarkets round Australia, they only do that because people want them not because they are forced on people.

        I will not deny there are some applications where EVs may work. And for remote mine sites with generators able to completely cover site power demands solar panels work well to reduce fuel bills. etc. But to force these things on people when in many cases they are not better and cheaper, for spurious politically motivated reasons, is wrong.

        40

      • #
        Harves

        The history of new inventions is that they had to prove they were better or cheaper. Henry Ford received no government subsidies. Having others pay to make you feel warm and fuzzy is a relatively recent leftist thing.

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  • #
    Hanrahan

    Do EVs get an ANCAP rating? Just lately there was a Tesla involved in a city crash which exploded and ended up in two halves. This is NOT supposed to happen in something not much worse than a fender bender.

    20

  • #
    Environment Skeptic

    The way to solve the problem is to include a small wood stove for emergencies. Job done.

    40

  • #
    Rick

    Also imagine, if, like happened recently to a Congress woman in the USA (and often occurs), there was a traffic snarl on the highway and it became log-jammed, and she was stranded there for 27 hours.
    I’ll tell you what would have happened – she’d be dead, and so would dozens of other idiots freezing in their oh-so-trendy EV’s!
    For this reason alone, tho I can think of a couple of dozen other reasons, EV’s will never, ever take off and become a viable alternative to gasoline powered cars. And neither will hydrogen powered cars for the simple reason that it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than it produces.
    As always, it’s all politics and it’s all bullshit.

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  • #
    Strop

    No probs. I can take the long view and patiently wait for technology to improve. I just require government to allow us the time to wait and not have foolish mandates and targets.

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    • #
      Strop

      Doh!. That was a reply to Gee Aye at #30.1

      20

    • #

      The technology is constantly improving,..but
      .. EVs will not become main market players until they are cost comparable with ICEs , and can also return sufficient profits for the manufacturers.
      Neither of which are currently even close . !

      42

      • #
        Hanrahan

        The technology is constantly improving,..

        Ergo your “old” technology EV will depreciate in inverse ratio to said improvement.

        When these new X2 density and X0.5 cost batteries hit the market “next year” your EV pride and joy will look pretty shabby by comparison.

        By comparison the imminent Mazda/Nissan spark-assisted compression ignition, constantly variable electronic valve motors will not cause a ripple in the price of existing used cars.

        10

  • #
    Neville

    EVs are a TOXIC disaster and what happens when you want to tow a caravan or a trailer or a boat?
    Some of the arguments here are a joke and don’t forget these tiny very expensive toys will never match up with a very ordinary cheap ICE vehicle.
    And if the battery dies after 7 years the rest of the car is useless until you replace this very expensive battery.

    41

  • #
    Raving

    EVs in Canada are a non-issue. Given cold weather and long distances travelled they can be problematic

    50

  • #
    Bill+In+Oz

    Seems to me that this idiotic German reporter has a ‘right’ to waste her money on an EV.
    And take 13 freezing hours to drive it home from the VW plant at Wolfsberg to Munich.

    But remember This is just a good example of evolution at work.
    The idiots get weeded out very quickly!

    Here is Australia is our ‘Warming’ climate
    the same sort of idiots will have huge issues staying cool while driving their fancy EV’s

    30

  • #
    Philip

    Yes the quoted range is always the 100 percent range which is never achieved due to the 80 percent factor , but people calculate it like it is genuine range. People are rather pro EV in conversation I notice these days.

    I never debate the range, power and low maintenance people love to speak of fondly. I do however question what are poor people going to do because the $2000 reliable Toyota Corolla will not exist. This is good because people who love EVs generally are of political persuasion with the illusion of being allies of the poor.

    I was dirt poor my entire life until a few years ago, but I always had a car, and I survived and ran business on cheap second hand cars. It made your life quality comparable to the middle class (with the assistance of a little Buddhist philosophy tp dismiss materialism), but to able to move around and go anywhere makes your life pretty good.

    The challenge is to get these things to the second hand market at the current cheap rate. Can it be done ?

    60

    • #

      Philip
      Some years back my wife owned a 25 year old Corolla. Not particularly fast but very reliable, easy for me to service and we sold it for more than we bought it for some years later.

      Until EVs achieve that sort of longevity and cost as reliable 2nd hand vehicles forget it. 2nd hand EVs are v cheap and when you buy one, then try to sell one later on it will be far cheaper again, if you can sell it. Then somebody has to dispose of the toxic batteries.

      I love my current ICE. 14 years old, still goes like an absolute rocket and its a manual which is a joy to drive. EVs are souless autos – just transport rather than drivers cars.

      30

      • #
        Philip

        I had a Nissan Stanza 1600cc for years. It was a fantastic car. Put a new engine in it for $800 after many years. Wish Id never sold it.

        20

  • #
    Tel

    I would say that Australia Post has done a great job with the electric tricycles that have replaced the classic 150cc “postie bike”.

    The new three wheel vehicles are quiet and easy to use, and well suited to the task at hand. The old postie bikes required great skill and balance, and although some people enjoyed the familiar “parp parp” to alert them to incoming mail … it was additional noise pollution in a city already full of noise.

    It works because Australia Post chose the right tool for the job:
    * Short range for local deliveries.
    * Doesn’t need to go too fast.
    * Lightweight.
    * Can charge overnight, no pressure for fast charge.
    * Three wheel design is intrinsically stable at low speed.
    * Holds plenty of cargo.
    * Quiet.
    * Easy to drive … requires minimal training.
    * Well suited to stop/start and driving on the footpath.

    The place where Electric Vehicles fail is long range and heavy hauling … in which case diesel engines easily will beat electric. I repeat: use the correct tool for the job.

    Why EV enthusiasts want to insist that they be used in places where they are unsuited is beyond me. I heard an interesting statement today, “When you mix together politics and science, what you get is all politics and no science.” It has probably already been said on this blog, but I can’t be bothered to search, and it’s pithy so needs saying over again.

    50

  • #
    John Galt

    The Corrupeteers’s Planned Future For Your Private Transportation:
    Electric Vehicles Are A Return To Travel In A Freezing Cold Covered Wagon

    20

  • #
    stewartpid

    Folks the battery swap idea was tried by Tesla and abandoned and an Israeli company also tried to make it work https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-place
    The Better Place story is a good read.

    20